When you play few years only one variant of poker and then you start on something different, so it is logical that you need something, what would that have shifted a bit in the beginning. I didn t say, that a nice redline is a guaranted optimal play. Especially on a small sample

Not aimed directly at you btw there are half a dozen people in this thread who seem self obsessed by it.

If you are new to these I would advise getting yourself to Pro Poker tools, to work out hand equities in O8 and combining this with some ICM calcs. You will then have done more work in these than 99% of the players out there. Good luck. Oh and ditch the graphs! Pm me if you need any help.

Thanks man Neither do I think that my post not offensive, I just explain why I'm so obsessed. For years, I used to play NLH or FLH is why I was so disappointed that after purchase my Omaha license red line work no correctish ... GL to You

how come non of the higher stakes are getting going? thought there would be more people grinding in the new year

All you hyper grinders, how many of you would register NLO8 hyper MTTs that ran every 1-2 hours at varying buyins ($5.10 up to $51)?

I'm trying to push for more NLO8 hypers in the lobby. There currently is only 5. Please share your thoughts in this thread: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...0/index13.html

This is the right thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/61...l#post45774837

I would The best one right now is the 51s but they start in the middle of the night. Dont know why.. Tourneys like that one every hour would be magic!

Some 5.10 - 10.20 NLO8 6max hypers each two hours will be cool

Imo the best option would be to add HOT tournaments for O8

PT apparently doesn't care too much about Omaha players. Its ridiculous they still have not fixed the O8 equity bug yet.

+1!

**** them

Of course they have given the possibility to download the older version of PT4, just haven't checked?

Stars is providing an interesting all-in viewing system. **** PT4, at the moment.

Will publish this in the PT4 thread, for encouragement.


Yes, it's ridicicilous they haven't fixed a bug this big. PT4 is bad. 2+2: please take action. Think I will PM Mason.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...l#post45823323

Just sent this: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/pr...&pmid=11406797

You do realise that it is a dynamic bit of software that is used across a lot of sites, games and formats? Multiply that by the plethora of different functions that they are trying to deliver effectively and you will realise that it is a microcosm of everything they have on their plate. It renders this issue very insignificant in the whole scheme of things and it won't be fixed in a good long while I suspect. If you consider that it is just to tell you how good or bad you are running then it is even more irrelevant.

Why would you even bother to worry about it?

Because it shows wrong percentages in the HUD. I'm pretty good at guessing equities, but one of the things I use PT4 for is the quick look at the exact equities after a hand and thus evaluating some plays directly on the spot.

Furthermore, it worked before. So, I think it won't take that long to fix this.

You really didn't read anything I said brun ?

Look I work for a company that does its own system testing. If something that previously worked in our "live" system goes wrong the evaluation to fix it is based upon the overall cost to the business and its users measured against other competing system failures that also need fixing, the cost of resources required in fixing the problem itself, aswell as other competing deadlines for delivering new functionality to the system that are contractual obligations. Our company then prioritises accordingly. I presume this is what PT and HM do - you can verify this through Google searches. I guarantee this is low priority and rightly so.

Even if it gets approval to fix the developers have to work out what went wrong, often develop new code, then put this forward to be tested in a test environment, then any further errors that have occured are raised and new code developed. Eventually when this process is complete the fix is then delivered in a release which often has to wait to go in with another raft of fixes.

I have no idea when this issue first happened but my guess is that this will take maybe 6 months or more from when it was identified. Quite happy to take over under bets on this.

It's pretty easy to see what is happening. Low equity is not added to PLO Hi equity. Simple as that, they know with which update it happened. Shouldn't be hard for the person that worked on the calculation of equities for this update.
I think you overestimate the importance of other fixes, improvements and new features. Obviously, they will be faster with other, more important fixes, but essentially saying that this will queue up behind all (or most) other things is exaggerating.

Despite the fact I know what I am talking about (for once) you seem to think what i said is bs?

You are transposing the importance you personally place on it with PT's. They are light years apart.

You want to do a bet? I feel cruel though because it would be like stealing money.

Casual Google search done. P2 especially from PT management. Still believe what i stated is lol?

https://www.pokertracker.com/forums/...p?f=58&t=54362

1) Mason is a friend of ours, but there is nothing he can do about the development process of PokerTracker 4. Good idea, but it won't work ;-)

2) Perhaps you were unaware that O8b support is not yet finalized for All-in Equity, and All-In Equity Adjusted winnings? This has been one of the more complex equity related tasks we have taken on, and since we merged with Holdem Manager to create a new combined company both developer teams have progressed - but even to this day both HM2 and PT4 are still working on perfecting O8b equity calculations, it is something that continues to elude us - yet we strive for perfection. Equity for cash games works (worked) correctly, the big-picture problem we have been working on for months is solving the tournament chip all-in equity, ICM, and Net Adjusted Winnings calculations.

3) Of course we care about Omaha players, but this is not the only issue that we are busy addressing - and its not as simple to fix as you think.

4) We are not encouraged by trolling posts telling us "PT sucks" because we did not fix a problem that affected you overnight. In fact it actually discourages developers, they are human beings too. Want to encourage us? Helps us... send us support tickets with examples so our developers can cover every possible situation. Telling other users that PT4, the application you personally use "is bad" doesn't help the situation at all, so probably best that you find a better way to communicate with us. BTW, this has been a regular topic in our support forums for the past month, our team has done a decent job disclosing all we know about the situation if you looked there.

Cliffs: ICM for O8B is really tough to get right, while improving ICM we accidentally created a bug that disabled the low end of equity calculations in PT4. This will be fixed shortly.

Correct. The O8b equity bug is just a tiny microcosm of the issues that our developers are addressing on a daily basis. In fact we have already fixed the equity bug across all networks, but we are now performing regression testing with all the other components within PT4 to make sure that there are no problems found. So far, so good - but we have had very few users approach us with sample O8b tournaments for us to perform regression testing with - if anyone would like to submit a significant sample across multiple sites for us to use during testing then please create a support ticket and attach the tournament hand histories (and summaries if they exist). Include the link to this post so we have a reference - and thanks in advance for the extra help!

The only thing we disagree with is that Street by Street equity is not actually a measurement of Running good or bad, thats actually impossible to measure.

PS: Slightly off topic, but it might be interesting to know that the equity displayed by PokerTracker 4 is just of known cards, if there are other players with equity in the pot that folded we cannot account for this missing equity - which makes showdown equity by street helpful, but not 100% accurate. Still, its the best that the industry can provide at this time, until a future date when hand range modeling becomes more advanced (see University of Alberta's recent accomplishments with limit hold'em as an example).

Its a much more complicated situation than you assume. You are right that low equity is not being calculated, this was a side effect of our attempt to "crack the code" and finally deliver ICM and Net Adjusted Winnings calculations that we can stand behind proudly by proclaiming their accuracy. The HUD equity display is a side effect of the bigger problem we have been struggling to solve for a LONG time, and it looks like we are finally close to getting accurate Net Adjusted Winnings figures for O8b.

On the bright side most online poker sites now provide street by street all-in equity thanks to PokerStars recent change, so there is a stopgap solution for most players until we are done working on the next release. Its not a perfect sollution, but its better than having no numbers at all.

See above. (1) Its not "exact" unless everyone who had equity in the pot gets to showdown. (2) It worked in the HUD before, but as a consequence it created problems with our all-in equity calculations. When we (nearly) solved the all-in equity problems, the side effect was disabling low equity calculations accidentally. But now this means we need to go back and revisit all of our prior work multiple versions back (this bug was introduced in 4.12.1). A very complicated task that takes time.
Correct! Very accurate explanation of the development support update process.

We will take the under ;-) The problem was introduced December 8th. We hoped to have a fix out just before Christmas, but regression testing was required - and in turn additional fixes applied. I predict this will be included in our next release (either 4.13 or 4.12.2 - the version number remains to be determined), and that release may happen as soon as next week if all goes as planned - if not sooner. We are doing the best we can, but issues as complex as this takes time.


I hope this lengthy response helps clarify the situation. We do not normally respond to posts outside of our official 2+2 support thread found inside the Commercial Software forum, but this is a rare situation where some clarity was needed. If you have more questions or wish to respond to this post, please post it in the official PokerTracker 4 thread on 2+2 rather than here so we can read it and give you an answer. Thanks!

- TT

Streighty the main reason for a lot of people to purchase a poker tracker is to get an idea of what their true ev and win rate is in the games they play. As someone who plays seriously these things are highly important for managing a bankroll and deciding what to play going forward. This is important for sng and cash game players both.

I understand this is not the hugest issue in the world for them but to suggest it would be ok if they took 6 months to get it fixed is ridiculous. This may not be an important issue for you personally but it is for most O8 sng and cash players who use PT4.

Why do you feel offended just because I have different opinion on a matter where you legitimately state to have more experience? Try not to take this to a personal level all the time. That is truly annoying. I don't call bull**** on your posts, just state that they are exaggerated in my opinion.
It doesn't matter what importance I place on this matter. I am able to differentiate between this and the importance for PT and the average consumer. Compared to other issues/fixes, this is an easy one to identify. As we heard, a lot of equity calculations are being set up from scratch, so it's not possible to revert to status quo before Dec. 8th, but identifying the problem is easier than in other instances.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...l#post45834899

STREITY! NO G or H! Ask the Germans ITT

I have explained sufficiently (I thought), why it is relatively irrelevant in the whole scheme of things and this has been supported by PT comments above. Don't think I need to repeat myself.

The emphasis either of us place on the required fix is pretty much irrelevant. It's a business decision.

It is true that timescales in software development can be incomprehensible to the outside world.

Didn't think it was personal. No offence was taken. Maybe it was my communication or your comprehension skills, or most likely both that were at fault.

This seems slightly contradictory (the bit in bold). Alternatively, there is an area between over exaggerated and bull****. Either way what I stated is an entirely accurate reflection of how software development works and this is supported by PT comments. There was zero over exaggeration on my part I can assure you. As you rightly stated, I have more experience in this area and I can guarantee you my company would take this long to sort this issue out! Fortunately, it seems as though PT are more on the ball.

However, I would ask, have you (or anyone else for that matter) sent them a sample size of hands to help them sort this quicker as requested?

As PT comments above state, this is far more complex than you have suggested.

Winrate can be tracked, but true EV cannot, that is mathematically impossible using today's technology. It could in theory be accomplished with the use of a Neural Net to predict opponent ranges, but as we currently stand a tracker cannot determine true EV. A human being can do this by manually populating the range but that would be inconvenient to stop the game just to enter in ranges, an automated tracker cannot because it cannot predict opponent ranges. In probability theory, the expected value of a random variable is intuitively the long-run average value of repetitions of the experiment it represents. In poker the fixed component is your hand and the size of the pot, the variable is your opponents RANGE. A fixed hand at showdown is not your opponent's range, it is just one hand of many that your opponent may have - which is why a tracker cannot calculate true EV. Instead we calculate things like All-In Equity Adjusted Winnings, which is your hand equity multiplied by the size of the pot. Many players mistakenly think this is EV, but in reality it is night and day different measurements of expectation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

- TT