You've got A 2 75 in MP
5 players call

flop comes 2 9 K
theres a bet and everyone calls. 5 way

Turn is Q
Its checked until the guy to your right bets. Do you raise to drive out the 2pairs drawing or smooth call for value to get more in the pot?

wat



To the OP:

Interesting question. I think you can either call or raise because you have top two pair, so you will probably only lose to a 9 or 6 if someone else has a set or weak two pair, so I think you can afford giving a "free" card.

Without the top two pair you should definetely raise though.

Need more information about opponents' tendencies I think. But in general if they're the chasing sort I think I just call, figuring that
- if someone has a set, they're probably calling anyway, so it's hard for me to make a board-pairing river bettable or safe even if I raise
- if the board doesn't pair, I will be more likely to collect extra bets on the river if I disguise my hand by just calling here
- if someone has the straight flush, I'll save myself a bet :-)
- the fact that some people may call one bet but not two weighs against raising purely for pot equity reasons

OK, now that the dust has settled, and we have the nut flush on the turn, and no low is possible, lemme think.

* Any backdoor low people with other draws will likely drop out to 1 bet, so they're gone anyhow.
* Any two pair players MIGHT stay for 1 bet, and less likely to stay for two.
* Any worse flush will probably stay for 1 bet, but are probably gone for the two bet.
* Any set will stay for 1 bet and would likely stay for 2 bets in a multi-way situation.

Raise, I sez. It's the most likely way to juice up the pot while we're ahead.

This is an excellent response, BUT...

If this is PL, it makes sense. If it is limit, it is an AUTORAISE.

This is a LIMIT hand. Just to clarify.

seems like a clear raise.

the people who've got 2 pair or a set will come along with you anyway, and sometimes they will call you down on the river "knowing" you have a flush. for just one more bet, people will do some silly things, and you might as well charge em.

I'd say that would be true at online 0.5/1 and below, but at 1/2 most will look to their left, look to their right, see 5 in the pot and get out on a flush board. The guy with top 2 pair will try to justify a call with hitting a boat some of the time.

Then again, in a live game, calls appear looser.

ohhhhhhhhhhh, then it's definetely a raise

I don't like to 'protect' my flush in this case. If multiple players have draws to a boat, they are competing for each other's outs. Here is an example where all of my opponents are drawing dead:
Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
board: Kh9h2dQh Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins Hi Ties Hi Wins Lo Ties Lo
AhTh2s5s 100.00% 28 28 0 0 0
KcKsQdTs 0.00% 0 0 0 0 0
9dQsQcAs 0.00% 0 0 0 0 0
AcKd2h2c 0.00% 0 0 0 0 0
Jh4h9c9s 0.00% 0 0 0 0 0

When there is action on this sort of flop, you either have straights and flushes that might tag along, or you have two-pairs and sets that are drawing fairly dead.

I would rather have all the two pairs in drawing when it seems unlikely that I can get the sets to fold. Then, it is simply a matter of how much money I can get into the pot on the turn. The bigger the pot on the river, the more likely that a set will call on a safe river. If this means smooth-calling, I will do it, and then hope for a raise by top set.

Unless a new set was hit on the turn, you will often know who has top set (or top two). If they have lead the betting from my immediate right, I would not raise.

Effen

I like to raise with a good draw like this on the flop hoping to get a free card on the turn if I don't hit, and also to build the pot (never a bad thing when you have a nut draw). In this particular instance I would say an offsuit 3 or 4 could also be a very good card which would cause me to bet/raise if it came on the turn.

fold , u prolly are up vs a straight flush ---- save ur money

While i think your point does have merit, i still see plenty of these guys from the 2/4 level to the 20/40 level. The frequency does drop but they're definitely still there in my experience.

You must raise to charge the low hands to draw.

Yeah if you pop it right there you can get those guys with the likes A3QJ and A4QT to lay it down, so if the backdoor low comes off you probably are good for it. If a six or eight comes off on the turn you're in pretty good shape, and you won't have to worry about some sucker taking half if you hit your middle straight or if a low heart comes (not the 5).

wat?

well what he means is that many players call on this kind of flop with very marginal and sometimes no high prospects if they also have a backdoor low, so he's saying by pricing them out you promote your own backdoor low.

Well, I'm looking at the turn when you have the nut flush and there is no low yet possible.

As far as your post goes where you talk about sometimes raising the flop to promote your low, that's a good play on some occasions, but here I don't think it fits because (1) the pot was not raised pre-flop, so it's small, (2) you'd like to have a little bit more working for you for high (such as maybe a gutshot) and/or you'd like to have your nut draw a bit better concealed so there is a better chance of collecting extra bets, and (3) you'd like to have a slightly better backdoor draw in case someone makes a better low by accident. Of these, #1 is by far the most important.

Oops I think I forgot we hit the flush on the turn...

this whole thread is just full of weird crap and bad advice. raise your flush, end of story! raising the flop prolly a good idea too since it seems you have good position.

Lets play some Deep stacked HU



To the hand in question i would def raise if they are weak players as they will chase and like another said they may be many holding two pair or a set blocking eachother. Against better players maybe you could get trickey.

Let's see. There is 5 BB in the pot after the flop. If we 2-bet after top set bets out, and everyone else folds, we have put in 3 BB, and we have 75-80% equity of the 9 BB pot. This means we have 7 BB equity for a 3 BB investment. This assumes we fold a pairing river and villain folds a brick river. (We might be worse off if we have to call a river bet on a pairing board where villain was betting a non-nut flush.)

If we smooth call a bet on the turn and get 2 more callers, our equity goes up. The callers either are drawing dead with non-nut flush or str8 or are taking some of top-set's outs. Our equity is probably 75-95% of the same 9 BB pot with a mere 2 BB investment. We may also get paid off by non-nut flush or str8 on a river brick, and we also may see a raise behind and a chance to 3-bet the turn!

I think raising the turn is a huge mistake in some cases and a no-brainer in others. It depends on position and your opponents tendencies.

Effen

It's a limit hand. We can play as deep stacked as you want.

I'm not sure what's going on. When I first read the thread, there was an 8 on the flop. That's why I was saying to charge the lows to draw on the turn.

Now the OP, including my quote, has a 9 on the flop making no low possible. In that case, I agree with you that calling will often be a superior play. With the bet coming right in front of me, I would raise maybe 25% of the time and call the rest of the time, but in general with that many limpers my flush is mostly safe and I'd rather get the overcalls.

/confusion?

If this is limit, I'm always raising. Let 2 pair/set call 2 bets.