PC, like common people. Always wanted my equipment to be as standard as possible, figure they bother me the least then, go figure. Work's got Windows and IE, easiest is not to have to bother learning several systems.

Looks I have my hands full learning poker.

Sorry for the thread derail btw.

call ainec versus lev_gold or any1 that isn't a nit.

You can call and encourage flips all day long, that's your prerogative. When you see Lev holds the all-time luckbox stats in this particular game though, do you need to flip with him at every opportunity?

I'm probably not out of line by saying I have played Lev at least as much if not more than anyone else here. He is shoving utg with A 5 9 K ss, A 3 T J ds, A 2 3 5 ss, A A X X type hands (btw he is more likely to raise than shove true premium hands). Naturally you need to be in the game (and previous) to have a true feel for the shove count and the mood of the player, thus the likely utg range (and running). I wouldn't wanna call A (3 4) J vs any of the hands I just listed because my margin is wafer thin. Do you find it likely the same scenario will repeat 3 times before hero either loses patience or picks up a hand that likely affords him greater pre-shove running margin?

Now look, change the player to juicy_j or angryjuice and it's a different decision, mostly because I know for a fact that A 8 T J ds, A J Q K ss, A 3 8 9 ds, 4 4 7 8 ds etc are in their ranges for open-shoves pre from any position (not for Lev), and in juicy's case, you always gotta account for the ~ 40% of times he shoves with total **** - 2 3 4 X is a huge fav of his and obv vs these sort of hands we can reasonably expect to fare well with A (3 4) J.

Cranitam is a competent player (Brazilian I believe?) and as you guys know I don't give out praise lightly, you can be reasonably confident that cranitam already knew everything we just said, he was just looking for some psychological re-affirmation or some sort of anomaly that wasn't immediately obvious to him.

Seems most of you agree that his play was correct and I'm the only one strongly advocating a fold. Different perspectives I guess.

I was being a little flippant with some of my earlier comments about shove-counts and range reads.

So this is how it is with Lev. He ran better than JJ for about 18 months, literally any sort of hand he played (like A 4 5 J rainbow) would scoop the field relentlessly. Then the wheels fell off and he could no longer win with perpetual -EV play. He is still stuck in that previous era of supernatural luck however, and I feel he no longer attempts to even distinguish between hands in SnGs - such that A 4 5 J ss and A 4 5 K ds are played exactly the same way. There's no longer much of a strategy evident in these games from his POV and if you have more patience and no bad luck, a good player should best lev in SnGs quite consistently.

Put it this way, I have equal fear of Cranitam and Lev in SnGs, I don't feel either has cause to remove most skill from the equation with shove/fold pre (juicy on the other hand should stick with the shove-tard strategy). I will always give Lev a lagging respect for past achievements and the small chance he might have his brain fully engaged in that particular game.

The concise way to say all of the above is:

Don't call lev's utg shove with A (3 4) J without knowing you are behind for high or low, or possibly both.

Can't we estimate ranges instead of discussing whether villain has AAxx or a bluff? It is really absurd to even ask such a question in a game involving average stacks of 10 big blinds.

Obviously we don't know if shoves the top 22% as defined by propokertools but we should probably call this hand with the overlay and the indications lev shoves wider (high mentioned ak98r)

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AsJh3c4c	50.00%	185,455	248,829	37,348	183,420	57,737
22%	50.00%	185,148	313,823	37,348	80,072	57,737

This isn't a HT hand. The SMALLEST stack is ~ 10BBs, the biggest stack is 40 BBs, the field average at this point would be ~ 2454 chips ~ 18 BBs.

Ranges might work for you guys in generalised terms but when you are playing the same dudes every single game, it becomes almost an instinct to put them on hands. If you are sitting there for a few thousand games and wondering, "wtf does he have this time? 3rd utg shove in 20 hands?", you kinda learn to differentiate between the shove-tard play and the premium hand play.

Like I said about Lev Gold, he tends to raise rather than shove premium (top 2-3%), so IMHO, you can remove the top 3% of hands from this theoretical range. I also happen to know what kind of hands this player favours in various positions and I would be 100% certain the 4 hands he shoves utg are : A 5 9 K ss type hands (the one he shoved in this instance), A A H H, A 2 3 7 ss/ds/rainbow, A 3 J Q ss/ds/rainbow. If my hand matched up well with my read (albeit this is subjective and a guestimate) I would call. According to my read, A (3 4 ) J is a race at best, so, if I trust myself, I fold.

Demonic - I see that Q (and perhaps others) have responded to you, but I have not yet read those responses. I'm going to post what I wrote in response, and then read what Q (and perhaps others) has written.

I’d like to do that. However, I don’t know how, because I don’t know what the estimated range is (of an unknown no-limit opponent who shoves). Seems to me the range is different for different opponents.

What does the unknown UTG opponent who shoves (UUTGOWS) want us to think when he shoves? Seems to me UUTGOWS wants us to fear he has a very strong starting hand… something like AA** with a suited ace and a wheel card... (that would be a generalized example of a very strong starting hand UTG in my humble opinion).

But if not a strong hand like the one indicated in the previous paragraph, what? Please estimate UUTGOWS 's range for us. And please explain to us (if you're able) what your basis for this range estimation is.

I don't have the faintest ****ing idea what an UUTGOWS 's shove range is. As stated, I think it’s very dependent on the particular opponent.

I don’t understand. Why is it absurd “to even ask such a question in a game involving average stacks of 10 big blinds”?

I agree.

If he shoves 22%, is he shoving with the best 22%, or is he shoving with a lesser hand when he thinks his opponent will fold and shoving with a much stronger hand (or not shoving at all) when he thinks his opponent will call? I don’t know the answer. I don’t see how anyone but Lev knows the answer for Lev.

To maybe make it a bit clearer to you, I don’t shove when my hand has a certain value or better. I shove with a very strong hand when I think my opponent(s) will call, I might shove with a mediocre hand when I think my opponent(s) will fold, and I don’t shove with a very strong hand when I think my opponent(s) will fold. In other words, I play my opponents more than my cards (although my cards do have some bearing on my play).

I can’t prove it, but I truly believe “playing your opponents” is (vastly) superior to (albeit admittedly much more difficult than) “playing your own cards.” And if Lev is the strong opponent Q makes him out to be, mightn’t he also play his opponents more than playing his own cards?

That makes sense to me... but folding also makes sense to me.

Interesting that you found the spot where Hero’s hand is even with an unknown hand.

But now the question in my mind would be, “Do I want to stake my tournament chances on a coin flip or do I want to wait until I think I have a distinct advantage before risking my stack?”

Buzz

+ 1

Counter-intuitively both yes and no.

Yes Lev plays certain opponents more than his cards in sngs but unless you have dealt him consistent pain and shocked him out of his shell - lev has never spoken to or acknowledged anybody at any table AFAIK, all I ever got was a distinct change in betting patterns - he will treat you with utter indifference.

Some here think lev is an incredibly bad player (juicy and billy + others if I recall) but I love him because he's Russian (therefore runs good vs juicy) and is so passive with me nowadays, he's practically an ally.

Honestly, I think the consensus amongst sng posters is that shoves and flips are good, certainly not to be feared or avoided.

Youngsters nowadays, no respect I tell ya!! Must be the hyper-turbos.