wasnt sure what to do here...sb is **** terrible and i could well have him in good shape but a fair jump from 4th to 3rd so i am thinking i wanna see the flop.

Mayb i can fold the flop but i wouldnt put it past the guy to bluff and i would be sick as so i guess if i am beat than bb is beat(hopefully)

anyway i was not pissed with it just thought it was a weird spot

converter not working...

PokerStars Hand #73850921056: Tournament #555020003, $200+$15 USD Omaha Hi/Lo Pot Limit - Level XV (800/1600) - 2012/01/14 15:51:24 ET
Table '555020003 3' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 3: renaldo81b (50641 in chips)
Seat 4: billygstar (36048 in chips)
Seat 6: StillSteamin (144467 in chips)
Seat 7: mariajamaica (11844 in chips)
billygstar: posts small blind 800
StillSteamin: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to billygstar [As Ks 6c 2h]
mariajamaica: calls 1600
renaldo81b: folds
billygstar: raises 4800 to 6400
StillSteamin: raises 14400 to 20800
mariajamaica: calls 10244 and is all-in
billygstar: calls 14400
*** FLOP *** [8s 8d Kh]
billygstar: checks
StillSteamin: bets 25600
billygstar: calls 15248 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (10352) returned to StillSteamin
*** TURN *** [8s 8d Kh] [4s]
*** RIVER *** [8s 8d Kh 4s] [4c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
billygstar: shows [As Ks 6c 2h] (HI: two pair, Kings and Eights)
StillSteamin: shows [Ac Tc Ad Th] (HI: two pair, Aces and Eights)
StillSteamin collected 48408 from side pot
mariajamaica: shows [5c 2c 3s 6s] (HI: a pair of Eights)
StillSteamin collected 35532 from main pot
No low hand qualified
billygstar finished the tournament in 3rd place and received $2430.00.
mariajamaica finished the tournament in 4th place and received $1620.00.
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 83940 Main pot 35532. Side pot 48408. | Rake 0
Board [8s 8d Kh 4s 4c]
Seat 3: renaldo81b (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: billygstar (small blind) showed [As Ks 6c 2h] and lost with HI: two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 6: StillSteamin (big blind) showed [Ac Tc Ad Th] and won (83940) with HI: two pair, Aces and Eights
Seat 7: mariajamaica showed [5c 2c 3s 6s] and lost with HI: a pair of Eights

I changed the word "hand" in the title to the word "game" and then the converter worked. Evidently Poker Stars made a change in their wording and a change in a word or an extra symbol more or less can affect the converter.

I'd want to (and would) play this starting hand too.

And then I'd bet this flop myself, but I'm thinking you know better than I do. I'd bet the flop instead of checking because I'd more or less expect Villain to bet in the absence of a bet from Hero, and then we don't know if Villain has an eight (or better) or not.

However, if we bet and get raised, we still don't know and then we're in worse shape than if we had simply checked. You can sort of see the all-in force coming here. I hate to gamble that Villain has no eight (or pair of kings). Before there's any action, odds are he probably doesn't, but then when he goes nuts on the flop or even calls Hero's out of position lead bet, it's very scary.

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Buzz

You are the sb.

Anyway, i'd expect villain to have AAxx here the vast majority of the time and fold. I'd need a read on his 3betting and cbetting tendencies to do anything else.

Yeah villain had been very laggy/spewy since i had seen him and we seemed to be getting into a few battles and he had had got aggro with some pretty lol hands. However i still think my image was pretty solid and and hes not 3 betting me with trash but his range was defo way wider than your normal reg say.

So ye i am just not folding here preflop especially when the shorty limp stacks off. I have quite a few chips less than second also and this is a good spot to make sure 4th is busted and get a load of chips off the spewy villain and go for the win.

Can't see the hand right now but didnt seem any point in shoving pre as i had no FE and i am not stacking off on all flops.

However at the time when the flop came i felt i had no choice but to get the rest in and the best chance seemed to be check calling as if lead i am not gettin called by worse. I defo would not have put it past villain to shove with worse than ak.

So had to hope for 2 things. aggro villain is spewin and limp caller doesnt turn up with an 8.

1 out of 2 seemed a reasonable result imo and i was kinda happy with 3rd as i came into ft about 6th i think.

The 2 guys chopped for 4k and they weren't exactly very solid players so a bit disapointed in that respect but saying that i havnt had a decent result in a 215 for so long.

ye as i said above this villain defo wasnt turning up with aces most of the time imo but..he did..so possibly i was wrong and either he wasnt quite as spewy as i thought or my image was tighter than i though. Trying not to be results orientated for this hand is a bit tough ha

If limper had bailed i would have thought harder about folding.

when hero is dealt AsKs6c2h and 3 others are dealt hands, less then 5% of the time is one of those 3 hands AAxy (or KKxy for that matter).

when you include knowledge of the flop, K88, it increases the chance of 1 of the 3 having been dealt AA to approx. 5.25% ( but one of them having KK is less likely, its less then 2 %)

when hero is dealt AsKs6c2h and 3 others are dealt hands, one of the 3 will be dealt a ppt top 12% nearly 75% of the time.

i think its reasonable to conclude that being up against AA was just unfortunate/unlucky and not something you should have expected.

i use ppt to arrive at these numbers

one of the 3 is dealt a hand with an 8 50% of the time. and knowledge of the flop only reduces that to just less then 42%. whether either of the 2 players that thought their hand good enough preflop to open/call or 3bet, would think that if the hand contained an 8, i couldn't say.

Surely nice guy the chances of him having AAxx or an 8 have to increase when he shoves the flop, because a bluff like that 3 way would be extreme and unlikely (though i'm sure it can happen) with a player allin.

Yeah - unless the guy is 3 betting like crazy he is also very AA heavy pre flop

I think how often he is 3 betting is the most important piece of info here

Trivial get it in, you have a monster, just jam pre over the 3bet

Interesting spot.

I like the initial raise to isolate the CO who limps BTN with 7.4 bbs with such a strong hand. That seems pretty standard.

You are in a tricky spot with your stack size to just see a flop after that reraise from the BB. I can't see how you flatting that raise pre here isn't effectively an all in call. Therefore, your decision is really a preflop decision. Is it a spewy 3-bet or a tightish 3-bet by BB? Decision is opponent dependent preflop where I think I would fold or ship.

P.S I virtually never really rail but did for your FT in the 109. How much money do you think you would have won in your career if you could control tilt!!

ye the only reason a flatted rather than jammed was coz the shorty was allin and i wanted to make sure i at least caught something b4 sticking the rest in.

But jamming pre would also be fine i guess but i don't think i should be folding v this villain.

and lol ye streity i was a bit tilted at the 109 ft 3 handed. Had been a long night and afterwards i was annoyed at myself at how i played 3 handed. Made a couple of totally unecessary plays as u prolly saw.

Ye i don't think in general that bad of a tilter but sometimes for sure. That was one of em

Felt like i left quite a bit of money on the table last night esp in the 109 were the pay jumps at top 3 were very significant.

ye i'm sure in all games i would have done way better if i can control this. Guess i'm not alone though. I have improved over the last year or so though.

All of this

imo it's far from a trivial ' i have a big hand 4 handed' ship it as u guys suggesting. There are a number of factors that make it so which i think have already been mentioned.

Even with my catergorisation of the villain i reckon all things considered it's slightly closer to a fold than a shove with no FE.

And coz of the shorty in already and having no FE if i shove i still think the way i played it was optimal. Even a spewer is unlikey to bet out on a flop he doesnt connect on with such a pay jump from 4th to 3rd. I got a big enough piece in tptk that i had no choice and if i'm beat i'm beat and most likely secure 3rd as the flop was so dry shorty was dead more or less dead to an 8.

Sure it's ok to get it in you have a great hand. But you have 10bb left when you call the 3bet and you can preserve your tournament life when the flop comes down bad for you. Why not take that opportunity to do so?

A lot of flops that are bad for you are also bad for your opponent. And there are times when a hand you are ahead of pre flop will get away after the flop when you are still ahead, making you miss some of the value of a hand as strong as this one in both directions. Whereas getting it in pre will usually give you a decent advantage and you're almost never totally dominated by any hand.

Making an incorrect fold after the flop is a much bigger mistake then getting it in pre as a small underdog.

this is exactly my thinking. And do what gumaa is saying i just don't think that the villain is gonna go crazy on flops he misses when the shorty is allin so if i stack off and he calls the shorty is likely gonna be toast.

10 bb's is a lot in late stages of a plo8 mtt do still do damage.

I get the comfort of knowing that when i stack off i am in good shape coz to go out 4th would be pretty gutting there.

YOU CAN'T FOLD HERE. EVER.

The big stack doesn't have AA all the time here and it would be sooooo bad if he pushes you off a hand that has the short stack beat

Surely this is an ICM fold pre.

Whilst I agree that we cannot always peg his range down to Aces, it is VERY heavily weighted towards them when the BB 3bets a SB raise. Granted in a NLHE scenario, 3betting a short stack isolation is often a profitable play, in PLO8 I find very few players will do this light, or even a hand worse than yours.

I feel the situation could have been avoided however with proper betsizing. It's so unecessary to 4x the raise here. Isolating the shortstack can just as easily be done with a 3x raise or even less and it prevents you getting in just these kind of situations when the BB 3bets. The flop call is ofcourse trivial but you should never have got there.

Grim the other guy limped so it's a slightly different scenario to the one you mention. Closish to the same, but different imo.

You don't think there are any conditions under which you could find a fold?

i agree which is y i didnt fold..but to blindly stick it allin pre doesnt seem the best play to me either.

The flop made it kinda simple as in i am ahead of some of aggro villains range and ahead of most of limpers range.

not an icm fold no but icm is a factor which is y i thought flattin and seeing where i am was best...villain is pretty aggro/spewy as i mentioned and i am still playin for the win. i cant just give up on apot i mayb big fav to win.

And people wonder why I cram all sorts of garbage in SB's spot

i have a passive limper here 4handed that wants to see the flop b4 he stacks off. y on earth would i not pot.

i have a spewy fish behind me that would also luv to see the flop with crap and i'll proly get in a worse spot.

can u explain marek? not bein a smart ass but i dont know what u mean

so ur sayin that coz i pot that sb is gonna jam all sorts..lolol..really???