I see a lot of people betting and raising with the nut low (with no high hand). An example was two players with A2 on a low board where one got quartered by the other because the other guy had queen high for a high hand.

It seems to me that betting any hand where you're fighting for half the pot, especially if it's a nut low, you're begging to get quartered (or worse).

I'm dumbfounded by some of the play I see, but I've had such a bad run lately that I'm questioning everything.

Is the best course of action not to check with the nut low? Obviously, if you have the nut low and a good high hand, betting seems optimal, but if you're playing a naked nut low, isn't betting just spewing chips?

Too many variables to give an answer. Are we talking limit or big bet? How many players make it to the river? Reads on the other players? What do you mean by "naked" -- do we have any kind of a high hand to go along with the nut low? Even a middle/high pair? What does the board look like?

generally not a bad thing in fixed limit, should be used more sparingly in big bet

Obv it depends on your opponents. If they are loose then you can bet the nut low all day long where as if they are nits its better to proceed with caution.

In PLO8 a lot of your profit should come from getting the other player to surrender their half of the pot. Betting with just the nut low can help accomplish that, if you suspect your opponent has a marginal high hand such as 2 pair that can't withstand much heat.

you can also get some players to fold nut low.

You are right to have reservations about betting out with "nut low", as clearly when u bet u will have no hand. If all you have is a "naked" low draw then the optimum strategy is to MAKE your hand as cheaply as possible - i.e. think of it like a gutshot draw in holdem (yes I know ur odds are >>>). Never do u want to bet that hand, u want to convince ur opponents to give u the turn and river for free so u can make your nut hand and destroy their set or 2 pair.

That is the secret to great OH8 play - making unbreakable hands cheaply and then forcing your opponents out with huge bets or quartering them. It is NEVER a good idea to be allin or use a big bet on a "naked" low draw. There are, however, a few situations I would encourage betting out with a draw. Think of it as "nut low + 1, + 2, +3".

Nut low + 1 is when you are holding A 2 3 6 and the flop is 4 5 K (a board that seems to come up quite often). In this situation it MAY be a good idea to bet out SMALL and it is definitely a good idea to call any small-mid bets with a view to check-raising turn or river with unbreakable low (+ draw).

Nut low + 2 is when you are holding A 2 3 7 and the flop is 3 7 K. In this situation you might wanna go ahead and bet out depending on number, position and quality of opposition. Yes you have a strong hand and may want to check but u gotta figure other A 2 or A 4 hands are gonna call your bets as is A K or maybe even 4 5 6 8 depending on how fishy they are. Really it is up to your discretion how u wanna play it but depending on the opponent this is NOT a great spot to be allin - assuming a raise pre your opponent could hold A 2 3 K or 2 3 7 7 or even K K Q Q. The number 1 idea at this game (IMO) is to MAKE your nut 5-card and then milk the table, not to be the cow that gets milked by being allin all the time with draws (which ur opponent may share).

Nut low + 3 is when you are holding A 2 7 7 ds and the flop is 3 7 T or like 3 8 K with 2 of your suit showing. Again you have full discretion on how to play this (you are odds on to make a flush or low even if u are cracked on flop) - u can check, check-raise on flop, bet out small, bet large or even squeeze. As always u gotta know the opposition and as u have seen, half the players at the table will call allin on that flop with a naked low draw. They may get a 50/50 chop, don't let that put u off. A big thing in OH8 is the scoop and while you may only scoop even in that situation ~ 35% of the time, if you play enough hands vs fish callers you will scoop enough to boost your cash roll or build a stack in SnG or MTT.

It takes a while to perfect your reads and when it is a good idea to bet out against certain opposition - often I find myself flat calling (with unbreakable hands) until the river then check-raising allin if I have position and willing opponent (as u know it's tough to call allin without the nuts). The best thing to do is rail some good OH8 players @ high stakes cash, SnGs or MTTs. Watch out for their pre-flop range, how they milk the opposition, when they bet on draws, check and only bet out with made hands.

I don't even ...

I mean, do we not give any consideration to position? Stack sizes? Don't you want to build a pot sometimes?

A236 on a 45K flop and our plan is to bet small and call a raise? You know that we are 62-38 against KKQQ, and 60-40 against KKxx, for example? And on a blank turn our equity is not nearly as good yet we are probably priced in so don't we want to get our money in when we have the best of it?

Betting, in general, is not a leak.

If you only bet and/or you only bet/raise with your high hands or your really strong high draws, you'll never get anyone to fold hands that you'd want to fold off.

You should bet your highs along with your lows.

Do you bet with them all the time? No.

Do you raise with your nut low all the time? No. But "never" is 100% wrong, I mean, not advantageous.

Yes, you could legitimately say that. Some pros would do what you do and others would do what I suggest. I've read a few books on it lately and there is very little agreement about how to act in any given situation @ OH8.

While I used the word "discretion" a few times, my game is about minimising risk whenever possible without compromising my ability to scoop, indeed perhaps enhancing it. You can shove the A 2 3 6 on the 4 5 K flop if you want or bet, raise, re-raise if you so choose and mathematically, yes, you will be "ahead" when the money went in. Thing is you still gotta hit as you currently have no hand and are virtually guaranteed to be a dog to any caller (except a fish playing 2 3 7 8 or 6 7 8 9 or something). A much more likely caller would be A 6 7 K or A 3 5 K or A 2 2 T, something along those lines. In those scenarios you are drawing extremely thin for a total scoop and again the 35% u dont hit, u r bust to virtually any other hand.

For me a much safer and more profitable play long-term is the check - call (u may feel free to re-raise fish or bet-steal at your discretion). The reasons for this are:

1. You don't have to risk being allin HAVING to hit and being @ the mercy of the dealer (a fishy concept IMO to systematically bet or risk all on a 65% draw or when 60/40 ahead if u don't HAVE to).
2. Your possible scoop range increases as more cards fall on the board - when you MAKE an unbreakable low THEN you can go allin with impunity on the turn and draw for the high hand for free, OR you can force ur opponent to fold and scoop. Or you can slow-play till the river and then bet out or re-raise and scoop. The only way you scoop with an allin caller on flop is making the straight.
3. Excluding allin callers on flop you can build better pots by checking or betting amounts in the range were sets, 2 pair, top pair and higher straight draws will likely call.....an awesome thing to do is have 5-6 players still active on the turn and you are sitting there with an unbreakable hand, drawing for free. If you got 2 high hands competing alongside A 3 and 2 3 6 hands, a friendly turn milked the right way is gonna yield you a good return or huge scoop on river.

Sure in position you don't want to let your opponent draw for free and if u have a big stack you might want to bully short-stacks but you could argue that for any 4 cards, not necessarily just low hands or hands you see a flop.

Really meant to add that poker is like F1 - you are either giving pressure or you're taking it. If you bet big or go allin in the situation we are talking about, you are TAKING pressure. If you slow-play and make an unbreakable hand, then you are starting to EXERT pressure. I love making my opponent feel the pain of a tough call and not vice-versa.

In general the best consensus that I could gather is that with strong low draws you should bet at the level that encourages the most action. You don't necessarily WANT to bet out hands if you have a fair chance of making the absolute un-counterfeitable nuts

I'm a tight player. If I'm multi-way in a pot I won't bet the naked low draw. You are right that "never" is a strong term but in general it's correct unless you are HU in the pot (or playing against the blinds from early position, or with a good read etc) and can win the pot @ that point (which minimises your risk and variance). Any other play IS leak IMO. At the end of the day playing low draws will only get u a split if called and the objective is to SCOOP - either with the best hand or by betting out the opposition after building a pot.

I am also talking about relatively tight at least 20BB + full-table games, what you might call standardised play. Obviously when u r short-stacked or in position the margin shifts towards betting draws as you might WANT to get called and hit with low as backup or are just happy to end it on the flop with a smallish pot.

Players treating pure high and pure low hands the same way will leak so often calling for a split or betting into unfoldable high hands that they will erode any mathematical edge from betting out flops and the times they get called and make low for a 50/50 chop. Also it is definitely fair to say that when drawing for nut lows you are more likely to face the same draw than if you are drawing for high. Respect for the opposition is rarely leak - good field knowledge def helps when making post-flop decisions. You can use an HUD and play it by the numbers if you like. e.g. if a player raises and has < 30% Cbet on flop after pre raise, if you pick up a nut low draw and they bet out big, u better consider the fold before u ship any chips. If you are up against a really good player and the flop is 4 5 K, do we not consider the A 2 4 4/5 5 ds, the A 2 K K, A A 2 3, A 2 3 4, A 2 3 5 etc before concluding we are 60/40 ahead vs KK and ship the A 2 3 6? Or if their Cbet is > 70% and they bet out at a flop when you have a UC nut low draw, maybe best to re-raise allin but I flat call or small raise. Perhaps the guy has a VPIP > 30% (at full table) and you know he will play and call 2 3 7 9 and 6 7 8 Q if you bet out big on the flop. Sure, go ahead, bet and violate my never rule. You will more than likely scoop a huge pot.

Point is the absolute correct play is different in every scenario depending on so many variables from mathematics to psychology that attempts to explain them all simultaneously are futile. In general it is better to be a tight player and minimise risk. If the general perception is that low draws should be played stronger than I advocate, well, I do quite well at the tables, so keep calm and carry on

How would this thinking change if you were playing limit?
I generally bet if I'm in position and there are 3 or more (including me) in the pot with nut low.
I get quartered sometimes, but win half and/or get others to fold enough that I believe it is justified. (and yes - I get dirty look or comment from the other person that got quartered when it happens)
I'm still surprised at how often someone turns over A-3 and two pair when flush or straight are available.
Wanted to know what others think

At limit it pays to be a bit of a fish pre. Any ds low hand, 2 3 4 5 or even hands like J J K K (which I avoid like the plague @ NL) are must-sees for a min bet pre. Even in BB u hold 5 6 7 8 ds (these fishy omaha hi hands again avoid @ NL unless u know ur getting a cheap flop or are (semi-)bluffing) are a must-see for a min raise.

NL is a diff world pre and on flop but OH8 is extremely flop dependent, more so than any other type of poker except courchevel or a wild card game. At any format if u get in cheap with fishy marginal hands like 2 3 J Q ds or A 4 5 7 ds, 2 3 6 7 etc and hit a friendly flop, u can be in business. At FL u can call to see the turn or river, cheaply, chasing only nut hands. Obv multi re-re-raises u have to think harder.

People call off their busted hands bc they made their 2 pair/set on flop or turn, fished for a full house, and on river if it's only 1 more bet they feel they HAVE to call bc returns are maybe 15-1 + for the 1 BB they might donate.

Quartering people is a huge part of the game. U want A 2 4 K with flop 3 5 8, opp holding A 2 7 Q. Turn is K, river is Q, no flush or straight. Small bet by opp on turn, u flat call, let him hit his Q, he then gets over-confident and bets out big on the river, u are OTT and he just lost 3/4 of his stack. Thank-you, please come again soon (NL play).

What game do you play where you not only get to pick your and your opponent's hole cards, but also know what's coming on the flop, turn and river?

They call it .... pokerstars

When u r super-tight pre, a reasonable proportion of the time the flop will take care of itself. You may think I'm full of it but in the pots that I play, more than half the time I could accurately tell u what my opponent holds by the turn. I would go a little further and say that if u don't KNOW what the opp holds by the turn, u can't call yourself a pro or say you play like a pro.

Particularly online, pattern recognition is key. Surely u get the days when it doesn't matter what u hold or how u play it, u lose, and u knew u were gonna lose b4 u shipped the chips? You just figured, hey, I'm odds-on here, I have a great hand, must be ultra-aggressive and shove. Just about the hardest thing I ever did in poker was tightening my range (I fold a lot of A 2 3 5s to big raises and allins pre) and learning when it's the right time to fold my A A 2 3 ds on the 8 Q K flop.

After you remove all the ways you can lose and used to lose, what remains is the ways u win. By a process of elimination, reading the opponent's cards becomes elementary, dear Watson

This quote basically sums up why Omaha H/L is an awesome game.

So much of NLH and PLO is basically "solved" at this point and there is so much info out there that can teach players how to play optimally.

The fact that so much of Omaha H/L is still up for discussion at this point is a really good thing imo