Im currently sitting in Rio Pavilion drooling at the apparent softness of the 10/20 & 20/40 O8 Fixed Limit games...but I am wary of jumping into them bc I don't know for sure what adjustments I should be making from a PLO background. Ive been regularly playing plo & big O, but...
does anyone have any advice or know where to look for advice on strategic adjustments to be made for limit betting?

I'm not a noob to the game, just to the structured betting and idk if it drastically changes strategy or not

+1

Much harder to push people off draws and much harder to bluff. Don't play much limit though.

A2 is the holy grail. Yes, I know you should go for the scoop in fixed limit also, but you can in fact win some money even when going for the low only.

I cringe when I see people go crazy preflop with A2 for limit. Cap it like its AA lol.

When people start playing LO8 they tend to go through a progression from 'A2 is teh nutz' to 'A2 is overrated' but the fact is it is the single best hand feature in LO8 and enough to make virtually any hand playable from any position in a typical/good game. Blindly playing every A2xx combo is a small mistake at most, but whether to raise and reraise requires proper evaluation of the other hand features and the situation. 3-betting an utg raiser with a279r is just monkeyish for example.

I'd love to run out my a2 vs your aa at a typical LO8 table a couple hundred times and see who winds up with more $$$.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AA**	59.37%	244,760	417,877	13,713	44,522	41,192
A2**	40.63%	137,301	168,410	13,713	217,051	41,192

[Edit]: Interesting how A2** gets a relatively larger slice of the pit against more opponents.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AA**	19.30%	63,675	120,783	6,831	29,466	37,704
A2**	25.58%	52,332	69,592	8,738	173,189	54,464
****	13.76%	46,045	94,691	11,793	14,501	9,219
****	13.82%	46,297	95,023	11,968	14,555	9,395
****	13.80%	46,273	94,827	12,042	14,709	9,195
****	13.74%	45,996	94,344	11,856	14,537	9,455

... all depending, of course, on what cards the hands being compared have:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AA**	28.81%	124,556	186,576	9,179	18,258	23,915
A2**	25.48%	78,304	101,179	10,161	119,967	27,476
34**	15.78%	51,634	86,870	12,816	41,135	18,547
35**	14.67%	51,861	93,334	15,151	20,073	15,060
45**	15.26%	51,880	100,738	17,145	19,087	14,732

[/edit]

Buzz

A2 plays better postflop though.

it also holds up a lot better against multiple opponents, not entirely sure what buzz is trying to show by posting heads up stats when czar's saying on a typical table

Yeah

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation[/URL]

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
aa	23.36%	81,740	149,565	7,723	31,894	38,277
a2	27.67%	62,482	82,114	9,528	181,526	51,350
*	16.27%	55,421	114,308	10,614	17,512	9,012
*	16.28%	55,336	114,462	10,681	17,398	8,972
*	16.42%	55,886	115,359	10,760	17,634	8,896

You're right. And plaaynde's simulation with multiple opponents makes it clear.

It was misleading for me to post a heads-up simulation.

Thanks.

Buzz

Not always obviously, but generally speaking: Trap less in Limit. Value bet more on each street. Checkraise less often than you would in PL.

Maximizing profits and squeezing out the thinnest of value is so imperative in Limit O8 (in any limit game for that matter) because each street is an exact limit of betting so it's harder to make that up when you miss bets here and there, thus, trapping becomes more of a negative, whereas in PL, you can make up for trapping, and actually, catch players for bigger mistakes/bets when you do.

Re: the A2xx hands: betting/raising with the nut low in Limit O8 has so much more appeal than it might have in PL. Don't be afraid to pump the pot with just a low; getting 1/4'd in Limit doesn't really sting that much anyway(not nearly as much as many seem to think it does) and the upsides to jamming or just value betting these hands in general, are usually going to earn you more esp if you understand why you're jamming and what you're trying to accomplish by the jam, or the v-bet.

The simulations above run A2** versus AA** and four random hands. While that is literally what Czar Chasm suggested, I'm guessing he meant A2** versus AA** in a broader sense. In other words, it seems he is suggesting he would rather look down and see A2** in his hand rather than AA**.

When A2** and AA** are included in the SAME simulation with four random opponents, this hurts the value of AA** because 1) one of the aces is removed so the chances of AA flopping a set are reduced, 2) the value of AA3* and AA4* (as well as AA2*) are gutted by an A2** also always being in play. In reality though, when you have AA, no one has A2** more often than not.

On the other hand, when AA** and A2** are in the same simulation, this INCREASES the value of A2** because it now 1) makes it more unlikely another player has A2, and 2) A2 will be counterfeited significantly less because two of the aces are gone.

A more revealing simulation is to separately run A2** and AA** simulations against five random opponents. I don't know how to paste the graphs in here, but when you run these simulations on pro poker tools, A2** has 26.06% equity, while AA** has 24.77% equity. While the A2 is better, it really isn't a very meaningful difference. Both AA and A2 are excellent and playable in limit games without much caring about the other two cards.

But even that is deceptive, because in the above simulations the universes of A2** and AA** sometimes both include AA2*, which has its own 30.84% equity. Also As2s** has 27.08% while As2d** has 26.10% (that last one doesn't make sense since A2** comes up at 26.06% equity but that's what I get when I run it).

If you really want to get down to it, if after looking at two cards in a typical limit game, you might prefer to see As2s** > AA** > As2d**, but it is close enough not to matter.

As for the plays better part, even bad players get positive equity out of A2**. One of the differences between average players and very good ones is getting their equity out of AA**, even though playing it well is more challenging.

• step 1. Click on the 2+2 in the line that begins with "edit" following the simulation.
• step 2. Copy and paste here.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
A2**	26.13%	55,985	91,090	10,550	152,807	56,037
****	14.76%	44,949	94,239	13,084	24,718	18,327
****	14.78%	44,950	94,532	13,116	24,437	18,401
****	14.78%	45,072	94,798	12,941	24,434	18,186
****	14.77%	45,111	94,130	13,078	24,582	18,610
****	14.78%	44,933	94,408	13,202	24,511	18,338

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AA**	24.88%	72,573	141,774	5,856	82,466	21,187
****	15.03%	43,703	85,594	11,612	42,564	14,952
****	15.00%	43,604	85,563	11,538	42,343	14,850
****	15.02%	43,670	85,184	11,781	42,848	14,775
****	15.01%	43,564	85,047	11,831	42,849	15,001
****	15.06%	43,607	85,617	11,730	42,987	14,900

You can bar AA from the A2** simulation and you can bar 2 from the AA** simulation.

Thus:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
A2**!AA	25.81%	54,700	88,445	11,012	151,961	56,967
****	14.88%	45,379	95,078	13,292	24,629	18,622
****	14.78%	44,877	94,448	13,105	24,471	18,752
****	14.78%	44,906	94,513	13,279	24,570	18,534
****	14.85%	45,307	95,082	13,139	24,410	18,695
****	14.89%	45,577	95,253	13,002	24,492	18,671

and

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AA**!2	23.60%	70,542	142,147	6,222	68,258	17,502
****	15.26%	43,842	85,065	11,582	46,226	15,067
****	15.34%	44,003	85,450	11,732	46,338	15,268
****	15.31%	43,838	85,541	11,653	46,368	15,052
****	15.23%	43,622	85,206	11,734	45,682	15,207
****	15.26%	43,807	85,224	11,793	45,764	15,098

Buzz

That's very helpful. Thanks Buzz!

Wow, propokertools has more options than I realized. Thanks for the lesson Buzz!

Crap... thought since I was doing really good at pot limit I would crush Limit. The rake has been KILLING ME. Don't recommend Limit for anyone. Even against the idiots you will breakeven. They chase and split most of the time.