SB is loose and overaggressive, BB is somewhat loose and very passive.

FR game, folds to hero who opens AK32 with a suited K from 3-off the BTN, folds to the blinds and both defend.

flop (3 players, 6 small bets): 458 two-tone, not hero's suits.

SB checks, BB bets, hero?

BB's lead should mean a fairly strong hand given his weak and passive ways.
he may have 67**, A2**, nut flush draw+something, set+something, A3+something, etc...

many times, I should have some kind of a freeroll against BB, so there's value in raising, for sure.

what to do about the third player is more interesting though. would you rather him in or out? push or pull?

From his position, SB will call my preflop raise not very wide. should have a lot of A*** in his range, high hands, big pairs+something, etc...

I saw SB was preparing calling chips, usually a sign of fishing with marginal-poor share of pot equity (I play with him a lot).
SB will call one bet fairly wide but won't call my raise very often.

To summerize: I put BB on a fairly strong hand and SB on a fairly weak one.
call or raise? push or pull?

assuming I just call and SB calls. BB should be betting the turn quite often.
do I keep flat calling on blank turn cards (say on offsuit T)?

It just so happens that raising makes the play of the hand rather straightforward and natural. calling and pulling a 3rd player in creates more delicate turn scenarios, IMO.

please view your thoughts, as these spots are rather common.

I'd probably just flat and let the other guy call. you're not scared of any cards, you are in position, you can raise the turn if u hit a king, the board pairs, whatever u feel like. If BB has the straight u can only win half and u have to bluff him out to win it all, so I like keeping the pot smaller on the flop so if u raise on the turn the pot isn't so big that it's just auto call down. I'm going to just watch him and see if he likes the turn card, whatever it may be.. and be raising or betting most scare cards, and K, A, 2.

I'd just call (pull).

I'd rather have him in.

Call. Pull.

If the turn is an off suit ten and BB bets, I don't think you get rid of another nut low if you raise, and you have nothing yet for high, just the wheel draw. I'd call again.

Huh?

Buzz

if you say the sb calling range of one bet is much wider than his calling range of two bets, then just call. i'd think about raising flop if i felt i could get bb to fold later in the hand, but if you say his donk range is pretty tight, that might be hard to do, so call.

besides, how does calling make your turn scenario more delicate? you have the nut low with a good number of outs to the wheel and you havent made a high. i'd be calling bb bets on a bunch of turn cards unless you make some sort of high hand

If I raise and get the third player out, the rest of the hand will likely go: check, bet, call. check, bet, call.

I have the lock for low, I have a good high draw, I have AK high, which can win UI if BB bets naked A2** or something like A3** with the nut flush draw and no pair.
all my straight outs are very dirty because of the 2-flush and possible straight on the flop.

By calling on the flop, the third player will hang in. BB will have the initiative and likely bet again on the turn. again, I will need to decide if I want to push/pull, now for the big bets. If I decide to call again, the same question will raise again on the river.

You mentioned I have nothing yet for high. I don't see it this way. It doesn't matter if I currently have a set, wrap, or AK high against a single opponent who's dominated by my hand.

I evaluate my pot equity for the high half as being decent 3-ways. I can afford to push it thanks to my great pot equity for the low half (to me, that's the essence of the game) and substantially increase my pot equity for high by knocking the third player out.
the bettor may have 67** to have me dead for high, but that's just one option.

more likely, I have a good shot at high against him, certainly better than with the third player remaining.

There is already some money to play for thanks to my pot-building raise before the flop. a raise "risks" (I actually risk nothing by raising with lock low) an extra small bet compared to a call. a call risks the half pot for high that would have at least 4.5 big bets by the river (hero raises the flop, bets turn, bets river, creating a 9 big bet pot, half goes to high). 4.5 big bets/1 small bet = 9:1, that's the risk/reward ratio the situation lays me on the flop.

raising and getting it hu is simple and logical. calling and staying 3-handed raises the same question for the turn. It requires delicacy to decide between calling and raising, pulling and pushing. It puts hero to a tough spot. turn might bring a card that hits the third player, and now it's too late, he's never folding.

I don't need to "be made" to push. a straight draw can be a pushing hand, AK high can be a pushing hand. more acurately - we push pot equity, not hands.

against this group and esp. if i played with them with any consistancy, i would raise the flop for balance/deception and because i think one of them was loose enough to make it worth my while. i understand the merits of pulling (that's obv.) and the fact that it's just a low hand at this time doesn't matter----if someone will pay twice then why would i deprive them of it? i want to try and tie someone to the pot and raising early accomplishes that more.

I'm thinking I would want to raise. How likely is it that BB has a high? will he defend 67XX? it's somewhat less than likely he has a set. I think it's most likely he's betting a low.

In which case your AK is more likely to be the best high, and you don't want SB to back into a better high.

Also, as Rush17 said.

and, I don't think trying to figure out how to pull one more player into things is worth the grief. If it was 2 or 3 more players, then yeah.

Regards

Gar

BB will defend pretty wide, and SB should have lots of aces and baby cards in his range, so the 6-7 combo is kinda live. on the other hand, a full table folded in front and behind me, so many middling cards should be dead in the muck.

I agree BB will be more likely to defend A2/A3/23 than 67/44/55/88. that's a good valid point.

i agree that the bb might prefer to have been dealt an A2/A3 hand, but, if he's defending pretty wide from that spot, then it's no more likely (or should we suspect) for him to have A2/A3 over any middling type hand that has hit that flop. the bottom line is that bb could have a myraid of holdings, and, just because noone called pre except for the blinds does not indicate that the remaining three aces are in one/both of their hands.

and why should sb have lots of aces and baby cards in his range---didn't you say in your OP that the sb was loose?

there are different levels of loose. SB is loose in a way that he'll often play hands that just have to lose him money in the long run. he's no dummy though, and he'll know that calling my raise from his position would be unwise with most hands. so i do expect him to show up with better than his usual standards.

[QUOTE=str8 or better;30119829]there are different levels of loose. SB is loose in a way that he'll often play hands that just have to lose him money in the long run. he's no dummy though, and he'll know that calling my raise from his position would be unwise with most hands. so i do expect him to show up with better than his usual standards[QUOTE=str8 or better;30119829]

[QUOTE=str8 or better;30119829]To summerize: I put BB on a fairly strong hand and SB on a fairly weak one.[QUOTE=str8 or better;30119829]

this^ is what you wrote in your OP so that's what I'm basing it on but somewhere along the lines you're now implying that the sb will show up w/better hands than his usual stuff.

funny thing, though, my decision would more or less stay the same.

read of strength is for before the flop. read of weakness if for after the flop.
for example: SB can start with a playable hand such as A45Q and flop lousy 2 pair, or worse yet, start with a big pair with broadway sidecards (maybe even with a suited A) and completely miss the flop, so I can't see where's the contradiction. good hands don't always flop well.

oh, ok. sry. you wrote it just fine. my bad.

You describe BB as loose and passive. Is he going to bet into you after you raised without 67xx? I notice that the passive players will usually check lows if it's raised pre in fear of being quartered if they expect you to continue betting after the flop.

I raise. For reasons already mentioned plus there are many hands SB could have that we don't really want him to stick around with. If BB has low getting it HU by raising SB out will often clean some outs for us.