I have been playing a little more NL omaha 8/b on Stars recently (50NL and 100NL) and have noticed a strange tactic: open shoving pre flop. I was wondering what the thinking is for this? I wouldn't be asking if fish were the only ones doing it, but I have seen many winning regulars making this move.

So I have to ask, what makes this a +EV move? What hands is this done with? I would expect a lot of times it is a AAxx hand, where x does not equal 2 or 3. I say this because this is a hand that plays very well in a multi-way pot, and so you would want action. So is this solely an isolation move with an AAxx hand that plays well heads up but not in a multi way pot? I hope I can gain a little more insight into this as I don't have a solid read on what is being done .

Simple answer: AAxx is still a slight favorite randomly matched against top 2% of hands in O8, assuming you can get it all in PF! In NLO8, it's not too hard to get a call from a hand that is not in the top 2%, b/c of a misused perception that PF O8 hands run much closer in equities. So basically by going AI pf, you may get one or two dummies to call you with a worse hand.

Open-shoving is just plain awfull imo. Usually, you will only get called by very strong hands that you have a tiny edge over. The variance is hell for bankroll management. More importantly, you GIVE UP ALL YOUR POSTFLOP EDGE! You need to have a few complete idiots at the table to get called by any hand that you have a significant edge over. Surely anyone posting at 2p2 can learn enough skills to get the money in when they have a much bigger edge postflop.

Also consider what constant preflop shoving does for game preservation. Joe six-pack buys in for $50 bucks on a friday night instead of going to the bar. He wants to sit down for a few hours and enjoy playing poker. Why would he call an all-in preflop push that might mean his evening's entertainment ends immediately? If he does call and loses... he feels foolish. He got no entertainment from watching how hands develop postflop. Next friday night he probably won't be back.

I often open-limp AAWx when there are complete lagtards to my left. If a lagtard raises... then you might have something like 8-15 BB in the pot depending on how many callers there were. Now is the time to shove.... you are risking your stack with the same small edge at showdown, BUT YOU ALSO have a chance of winning a decent pot outright. Of course, you can also profitably shove in late position with many limpers.

For any of you guys sold on this mindless open-shoving... consider this: Your sillyness will NOT WORK above PLO100. When you move up, you will suffer immense bankroll swings when you only get called by AAWx or A23x ds. Better to learn how to play well postflop now rather than preying on ****** fish who might call your shoves at PLO25/50.

Limping with the intention of shoving if there is a raise is a much better way to play bad AA hands in EP.

i heard something about some donk named pred that shoves a lot HU - 6 max. He shoves a lot more than AAXX and does well. Try shoving more than AA for a while and see how it works out.

If you know your opponents' opening ranges well and if you have position on them, assuming you have the goods, theoretically shoving PF can definitely be EV+, albeit w/ variance though...

d'

This really pisses me off and i usually harrass them in chat.I think they do it cause their postflop play sucks.I can see if u do it on river in an attempt to make the most of the person u have quartered.

NLO8 is a funny game. If you get competent people playing it, the edges are small, smaller than in other poker games. so the strongest players go to other games leaving average players.

Partly because the average players use the pushbot style, which is hard for good players to exploit if done properly. but it can exploit fish ok since they don't adapt well. but if you adapt well to the pushbot style, it takes most of the profit out and leaves variance since its such a simplistic game.

I agree. There was a thread debating this a little while back.

I see competent players that have major leaks in this game all the time. I think what you are saying is true more so at higher stakes. Plus there is no shortage of less than competent players at 50 and 100NL/PL

In reply to author's question: becase NLO8 low limits is a donkfest.

fyp.

so gergery says everyone is good and others are saying everyone sucks. which is it?

or at what limit do they games start getting tough?

3:35 PM, Monday

at 1/2 7 NLO8 tables, and only 1 PLO8 table.....

d'

i didn't say everyone was good. i said once you get reasonably competent players, the profit goes away. the way most people are playing it these days, there is only 1 decision per hand after all. there are still fish in the games, and still average players with leaks. its just easier to get competent/good, the differences between good vs average players is smaller, and it takes less time than virtually any other poker game i can think of. but it does take some adaptation as the pushbot style throws people at first.

Look at what games run -- only low limits, most people buy in short

As of right now, there are 3 tables at $2-4 at stars with a total of 21 players at them, and only 3 of those 21 players have full stacks. The rest buyin short and pushbot.

at the $1-2 tables, its maybe 10 of 27 with full stacks.

Do you think they are using proper SS for NL08, in other words, they know exactly w/ which hands to push and in what position, relative to remaining opponents' respective ranges? Or are they just bad players?

d'

lots of them think,
"cool, i've been looking for the poker instruction book that simply tells me how to play in any given situation. this is pretty close"

others think, "wow, they are just going all in, i'll wait for a good hand and stack them"

a bunch think, "fun, we can go all in and flip some coins"

one or two think about things like equity and hand ranges

Short stacks with A2xx seem to bunch in this category...

Agree. As you say, its not like there aren't some fish out there. However, once you go above 25NL, the play seems to level off to a point where you really have to grind it out to get any sort of marginal profit. Also, anyone who has played this game for an extended period of time knows all too well about the variance.

I have yet to play the higher level limit games though, so I can't give any observation on the play and ability to come out on top.

and the ones who do this shove a lot more than would seem correct...

i've come across certain opponents on full tilt and stars (mainly full tilt b/c the ones playing NLO8 play same tables daily) that shoving against them and calling there open shoves are profitable, for obvious reasons I'm not going to name the players but I have them noted and I love sitting in sessions with them!

I don't think a hand like AA89 has any postflop edge.

+1

Any1 that shoves 100$ into a $1.50 pot is just bad

I would also like to point out this does not just happen in the 50/100 max tables, I regularly play 200 and 400 max and it happens allllll the time there too.

yeah actually a lot of the top players that post on this forum do this in the 1/2 2/4 games. i wouldnt call it a bad play, cause if you can convince someone to call you with a bad hand (not hard) then youre getting all your money in on a 60/40 or maybe better chance, and in omaha its hard to get much better