I have been really trying to tighten up my preflop range of hands and it has been yielding good results. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make when playing this game is playing too many hands and playing hands that do not have strong hi and low potential.

Table has been very aggressive preflop, mainly being fueled by a fish (V1) on a heater / roller coaster who pots 80% of hands when the action gets to him preflop and on the flop and has been getting very lucky. Action is also being pushed by a friend of mine (V2) who although being pretty decent at NLHE, plays big o for fun and loves to gamble.

Effective stacks for both hands: $1000. V1 covers by a ton in both hands.

Preflop spot 1:

V2 straddles the button, hero is sb with KK54T.

Hero? ... folds? Knowing that V1 is almost surely going to pot it and the hand looks better than it really is.

Preflop spot 2:

V1 pots it utg, 3 calls, V2 3bet pots. Hero on button with AAT99

Its $115 to call. We have no low possibilities. Folding is fine?

Any opinions on preflop ranges based on position is also appreciated.

1: Easy fold for me

2: I like flatting, but I don't think folding is horrible.

Fold both, neither seems close.

Hand one easy fold
Hand two easy fold with stack sizes. I don't mind flating a hand like this in position occasionally for deception and our position let's us extract more value when we flop well and the best opportunity to win the hand if we miss the flop. Both things we need to do if we're going to play terrible aces imo. Only for a limp or small overcall. As played calling off 10% of our stack pre is a bad play

Hand 1 : Definitely a fold. Bare 54 potential for the low is only good for us when the Ace hits, which is bad for our high potential. As all our draws are to non-nut hands, we're really only banking on spiking sets and full houses.

Hand 2 : Slightly closer spot but I reckon still a fold given stack sizes and the OR plus more players still to act behind. Like you mentioned, the lack of low potential really damages this hand's equity. Inclined to call just the open and play for high-only equity, but facing a 3-bet for 10% of effective stacks seems bad.

yeah, the general consensus is what i did.

on a side note, i tossed my cards forward towards the muck in hand #2 and the cards bounced off the felt and turned over. i took a lot of friendly razzing at the table for this fold, but given i had no low potential i thought it was a clear fold given the action.

Early on in my poker learning I had several sequential learning moments over months or years where I realized I needed to tighten up even though I was already playing tighter than ever before.

I think you may be at one of these moments in Big O. You may have been really trying to tighten up your preflop range of hands but it would seem that your questions here may indicate that you have a ways to go with the tightening process.

Both of these hands, with the action and players as described, are very easy folds unless you just want to gamble recklessly. IMO it is not remotely "tight" to fold the first hand. In the second hand, with that crowd, the nines are likely more valuable than the aces and not very valuable at that. The nut diamond draw is nice but worsened with the nine as a companion. However, everybody who chirped when your hand flipped over only saw the aces.

I would also have chirped and tried to pile on if a fish was adamant at how bad a fold it was

I took it in stride, but eventually said that I defy anyone at the table to show me math that says calling there in a 3bet pot ever could be profitable. No one had a reply and soon shut up.

Don't talk strategy with your opponents.

I don't understand the hate for flatting with aces no low there. I'd understand it with no suited ace obv. It's not like there aren't good flops for that hand.

When we flop top set we still gii bad vs a lot of hands. When we flop a flush draw we often gii bad or have to fold. These are our best flops.

Obv we won't gii LLL-boards. Why do we have to fold overpair+nfd? Why are they our best flops?

What are the other good flops?

We have a double pair, so two possible sets. We can flop a straight, a flush, a draw to both of them to go with the overpair etc. Our hand is very well hidden and we have position.

That's why you flop quads, duh.

Think our SPR in this situation is too low to make it a profitable flat. But that's off the top of my head, you're much better at the math than me so I'm sure you'd be able to prove it either way

I'd rather play my aces with a low SPR, so that seems like a good reason to not fold here.

However, I was under the impression that v1 would just repot it after the 3bet, so either get it in first or fold (tough to let aces go, but I fold with a fish on a heater, 3 callers, and a 3bet already in the hand).

If we call here we're going 6 ways often. To those who like calling, would you like it more or less if the only active players were v1 and v2 and this was going 3 ways?

Hand plays ok both 6-ways and 3-ways, so doesn't matter for me.

ProPokerTools 5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AdTdAc9s9h	44.81%	164,383	347,288	34,096	0	0
10%	55.19%	218,616	218,616	34,096	338,098	0

ProPokerTools 5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

2,255,604 trials (Exhaustive)

board: 952

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AdTdAc9s9h	36.03%	515,712	1,109,522	12	0	0
As3s4	63.97%	1,146,070	1,146,070	12	1,622,664	0

ProPokerTools 5-Card Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: T52

Hand	Pot equity	Scoops	Wins Hi	Ties Hi	Wins Lo	Ties Lo
AdTdAc9s9h	44.74%	146,175	386,669	5,269	0	0
A34	55.26%	208,062	208,062	5,269	432,777	0

Obviously things will get better if it gets in multiway but these are some reasonable gii hu scenarios

Certainly, HLL-flops are not great for this hand.

V2 has an ace, V1 is weighted towards an ace (assuming he limps sometimes), an ace gets us closer to HLL board. If we hit the 9 we either get HLL or middle set. We can't realize our equity when it's 87x. I just have so many reasons I think it's a fold.

with regard to scenario 2: where hero has AdTdAc9s9h

given the preflop action preceding hero its very complicated to concern oneself with all possible outcomes. it can be 4bet after hero flats, or there can be between 0 and 4 calls (that is hu on the flop all the way up to 6way on the flop).

but taking the following very literally
and perhaps giving the flatting argument some traction I'm going to look at the problem by limiting the postflop possible outcomes.

defining the scenario as hero flatting $115 ($885 behind) the aggro villian flatting with a wider range and the other 3 callers folding.
its 3way to a flop pot of $400* (* hard to tell exactly what the 1st preflop pot amount is when the 3bet is $115)

if hero flatted preflop with the intent of folding when he flops less then trips and leading/going to showdown when he flops trips or better.

then 77.5% of the time he ck/folds the flop. hero losses $115.
lets say 5.5% of the time both villian's fold or hero flopped such a monster that he slowplays but neaither villian contributes more to the pot. hero profits $285.
that leaves 17% of the time remaining where hero flopped better then trips. hero must make an additional $150 postflop profit on avg. for the 17% of the time for hero to profit from flatting.

.775 *-115 = -89.13
.055 *+285 = +15.68
.17 * +435 = +73.95

100% = +.50


so, how might hero profit enough postflop those 17% of the time


if postflop 1 villian folds while the other calls and then folds the river,
it the bet the bet the villian called needs to be atleast $150. consequently, it should be clear that if they both call and subsequently fold hero profits.

if postflop 1 villian contributes $200 and folds before showdown, and it goes allin for hero's remaining $885, with the other villian, the pot at showdown will be $2370. hero needs 60.55% equity to profit(hero avg. equity is likely close) if the dead$ is $300 then hero's equity needs only be 58.1%

if postflop 1 villian folds and it goes allin for hero's remaining $885 with the other villian, the pot at showdown will be $2170. hero needs 66.2% equity (hero avg. equity is likely lower)

if postflop both villians go allin for hero's remain $885, the pot at showdown will be $3055. hero needs 47% equity (hero avg. equity is likely higher)

on balance, flatting to 3way on the flop, i think its close. its +/-EV

of course there is a question concerning the ~9% of flops where hero flops less then trips but has excellent equity.

additionally, if they both fold postflop 10% ott instead of just 5.5% then the 12.5% of the time they don't fold hero must profit $485 or an additional $200 postflop, which is obviously much harder to do then $150.

on the other hand:
if we change the scenerio, add another preflop caller,such that it 4way on the flop, with a flop pot of $515*

there will be not many fewer flops where hero flops trips or better, lets call it 21% instead of the 22.5% 3way. there will however be fewer flops where hero has very good equity when he has flopped less then trips(but this makes life simpler).

if all 3 villians fold postflop without contributing to the pot 5% of the time
.79 * -115 = -90.85
.05 * +400 =+20
.16 * +443 =+70.88

100% =.03

hero only has to make an additional $3 postflop rather then $150 or $200 he needed to make in the 3way scenerio. I think if its 4 way to the flop its +EV for hero to flat preflop.

Absolutely stupendous post Ng. I was going to add a contribution like "not folding hand 2 pre" but that seems pointless when I haven't substantiated it as beautifully. Top work.