Im bb with As7sAc2c. UTG straddles. UTG +1, a so so player calls. Folded to SB, aggressive bad player 3 bets. I 4 bet. Straddler folds lol. All call. Flop is Kd 5h 6s. Sb checks I bet, utg +1 calls, sb raises, I?

I'm almost indifferent between flatting and 3b'ing. I'm more interested in the turn/river play in hands like these.

Oh, I forgot to add in post that this is limit O8

UTG+1 pre-flop - so-so players are probably only flating A2 and A3 type-hands here (AA they probably raise, the rest are folds, maybe flat very good high hands). A re-raise on the flop by you will probably get a fold from A3 and a call from A2 and a re-raise from slow-played monsters. The raise is good for defining UTG+1 range, but you probably miss out on a chance to raise the turn. If you flat the flop and raise the turn, and there is no low, UTG+1 may fold A2 with a bad high (+ most A3 hands, fearing a possible cap against aggro player), plus you get more equity in as the bet size doubled.

Put me in the 3 balling like there's no tomorrow camp.

OP, you have a clear value 3-bet on the flop, IMO...

+1. A 3-bet on the flop won't shut UTG+1 out of the pot like facing 2 bets on the turn would (Especially if low misses). Even if the low hits, he would be forced to make a tough call on the turn with a naked A2 out of fear of getting quartered.

RA

This is the type of hand you should be getting pulled on. I don't think your getting value on the flop from raising with one pair and a low draw. Most of your low cards bring in straights and have you getting 1/2 sometimes a 1/4. And I highly doubt you will win this pot with AA alone. I would wait for a good turn to raise, preferably a low spade. Otherwise it's a check-call to me.

3!

Why?

Why?

Why?

I don't find posts like these all that helpful. I would really like to hear the reasoning behind these posts. They could very well be the correct answer, but I don't know why and I'd like to learn.

I generally don't like to put in a lot of money with a low draw without counterfeit protection. I generally don't like to put in a lot of money with only an overpair. On the other hand, it might be nice to push UTG+1 out of the pot and get heads up against the aggro-bad-SB. But if that is your goal, wouldn't a turn raise do a better job at that?

I think calling or raising are roughly the same. Where is this game being spread?

+1 to the turn raise on a relative blank if your trying to push the third player out.
IMO in these games if they will call one on the flop they have no problem calling two fishing for a good pivot card.

I don't have a O8 calculator like stove to run numbers but I'm wondering what what hands people think nut low and an over pair has equity against. The only one we are a big favorite against is A2Kx, some broadway wraps that have single kings with no low but even those hands have 14 outs and basically every time we miss the low AA is no good against those hands.

I'm guessing the game is at CP? Mix game?

Ive been in this situation many times so I have some solid advice for ya.

first ask the dealer to call the floor over and tell him to stop the game.

then run out to your car, open the trunk and grab your trusty shovel.

return to the game, call time in and begin shoveling your chips into the pot.

Oh, I disagree (or am misunderstanding). AA has good high equity against anything but a set or 3 pair, but it loses value rapidly with each player that stays in. It's definitely a pushing hand, trying to leverage the nut draw for the low half to justify aggression in order to win the other half.

Occasionally AA does win ui -- and it doesn't have to happen too often to make a raise correct -- but aces up often win when a blank pairs and no one made trips on the blank.

As many have noted, the problem is pushing may not work on the flop. Waiting for the turn makes some sense. I'm not used to playing in games where anyone's folding a live NL draw, ever ever, so the idea we could fold out another A2 is novel (but probably valid here).

Agreed, and this is a huge problem with present day 2+2. We could just post a poll and everyone could vote on each street, which would be informative, but not as informative as a couple of great teaching replies with good reasoning.

Also, OP, I'd appreciate it if you could calculate the pot size at each street.

I don't do calculations when OPs don't give them, so the number of bets in this capped multiway pot is "a lot." I'd be surprised if the math justifies anything but calling down for a quarter with a made NL on the turn. With three players, putting in say 4 more bets (raised on turn and river) to win back 3 of those 4 bets is a no-brainer if there's anything in the pot at all, and there's a little bit of money in this pot.

There's not many reasonable SB 3! ranges that make straights here on this board. A278 is really pushing it. Maybe AB34 with a nut suit but we have 2 blockers to that.

I like 3-betting here and taking initiative. We have a very strong 2 way hand, a fish player tagging along (his line is fishy @ least) and say for KK** from SB we should be in the lead in the hi hand portion (AK52 maybe but we're not horrible against that).

As far as the indifference goes - I think specifically with only 1 bdfd and the 7 for the 2nd low - if you were going to call with AA2 this would be a fine time to do it.

Maybe you should appreciate the fact that I took the time out to reply, even if it was in "poll" form instead of complaining that the answer wasn't AS helpful as you would have liked. I don't reply to very many threads as you can see from my "member since" and "post count" numbers, so it stands to reason that I have a strong opinion, even if I chose not to articulate the specific reasons. Respect the fact that good, professional players (like myself) are willing to give the poll-style response rather than vilifying us.

It's better than not posting and I appreciate all replies (when I post a hand). I wouldn't vilify anyone who replies in good faith. But arguments from authority are not very enlightening, and since I can't take you with me to the table, if I can't reconstruct your reasoning, it's not very actionable.

And I can't carry around a list in my head of winning players or players who claim to be big winners or whatever. But I do know whose posts continually impress me with the quality of their reasoning, and I privilege their opinions over others. I'd imagine that most people do the same.

+1 to rolleduptrips waving his douche bag flag!

Just call but I'm guessing there is a good chance you could be quartered in this pot.

It depends on what kind of "bad" player SB is...there are the ones i have encountered in my limited time playing O8 that just love A2xx and will go beserk and play it like the nuts every hand. If so, this isn't a great flop for you and i'd like to see a turn as cheap as possible and not trying to shut anyone else out of the pot.

No, you have it backwards. If SB is likely to have A2 and no great high, then it's even clearer we have a great hand that loses value rapidly with additional opponents, so we STRONGLY want to get the pot heads up. The only question is whether we can do that on the flop.

People really underestimate how often aces up wins high on a paired board.

You're probably right...i honestly was looking at the A2 and the backdoor flush draw in villain's hand,a nd totally discounted the AA when thinking about it. But...i'm also used to the games where we're going to the turn 4-10 handed so i don't usually consider AA taking down the high unless i flop a set

I think the flop play doesn't matter much. I have you on 56.6% equity hu, and 42.5% 3way. So, our equity is better 3way, but we want the pot as big as possible.

UTG+1 is probably going to call 2 cold a reasonable % of the time, so I think we just need to 3bet and get the pot as big as possible as often as possible. I doubt it matters too much though, especially since if we call we get in 2 bets on the turn pretty frequently.

I appreciate it