4/8 at the Venetian. Hero- tries to play looser and more aggressive; LJ- LAG, plays any hand; BTN- loose, plays most hands, hard to make her fold a hand; SB- loose passive, usually has the goods when she bets, but slows down once she is raised unless she flops the world.
9 handed game, Hero is dealt A45T in HJ.
folds around to LJ who calls, Hero calls, CO folds, BTN calls, SB calls, BB checks.
Flop (5 players, 5 sb's): 368r
SB bets, BB folds, LJ calls, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls, LJ calls.
Turn (4 players, 6 bb's after rake): 9, puts 2 clubs on board
SB checks, LJ checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, LJ calls, Hero calls.

Evidently you're using the acronym "LJ" to represent someone seated in late middle position. But what words do the letters "LJ" represent?

A general difficulty in showing hands from a live game is not remembering the suits exactly. When that happens, I think you have to make up suits, because suits matter. For example in this hand when two clubs come to be on the board, the number of clubs Hero holds and the ranks of the clubs matter. Does Hero hold the A?

If not, then AA54 is presumably Hero's hand.

Edit: Correction. Hero has a ten in place of one of those aces. Let's make Hero's hand
AT54. Doesn't change how Hero should play much after this flop. Well... I guess I like the second round raise less. (Shrug).

Is the reason you tell us Hero's hand has two spades because one of the cards on the flop was a spade? If so, perhaps the flop was
8,6,3. And then after the turn, perhaps the board was
8,6,3,9.

After the first betting round there are 5 small bets in the pot.
After the second betting round there are 13 small bets in the pot.
(That's the same as 6.5 big bets).
After the third betting round there are 10.5 big bets in the pot.

Hero has a nice starting hand, a playable starting hand, probably the best starting hand at the table. In my humble opinion, Hero can either raise or limp with this hand on the first betting round. Hero chooses to limp. I see nothing wrong with that, but I would not fault a raise either. (shrug).

The flop is good for Hero, probably making him even more of a favorite.

SB bets and Hero raises. OK. That's reasonable, I guess. Hero probably has the best hand at the table and perhaps the double bet will knock out CO and BTN.

Oops. Guess not.

Both CO and BTN call the double bet. Now we have to seriously wonder if one or both of them have the nut low (or the second nut low, same as Hero).

And SB, more or less as expected, calls the raise.

Why are all three of these opponents continuing at this point?

Then the turn is not good for Hero, not a total disaster, but now Hero's own straight draw does not look as good as it did before two higher straights were possible, and there are the clubs to contend with.

Hero's aces, a strong feature of Hero's starting hand, are not worth much for high at this point. If the 2nd round bet had worked to knock out CO and/or BTN, Hero's aces would look better.

Would Hero have fared better with a pre-flop raise rather than a second round raise? Hard to say. Since the second round raise didn't work, in retrospect, maybe a first round raise would have been better in this particular case. Or maybe not. Maybe the situation would be even worse if Hero had raised on the first betting round. Hard to say.

At any rate, SB checks, as does Hero.

With two players acting behind you in a fixed limit game, once you stop initiating fresh money into the pot, as with Hero's 2nd round raise, then if you check, you can more or less expect someone behind you to bet.

And that happens here. After CO checks, BTN bets. BTN's bet doesn't necessarily mean BTN has a ten high straight, or nine high straight. And the check from CO doesn't necessarily mean CO doesn't have a straight at this point.

All the same, neither Hero's pair of aces for high nor Hero's straight draw for high look strong. Since if we call here, we're calling on the river too, it's going to cost us at least two big bets to see the showdown. And realistically for the low half of the pot with second nut low. Our extra ace doesn't substantially reduce the chances of an opponent holding a better or the same low.

Meh (shrug). I don't think Hero could pull off a check-raise here. (What would Hero be representing with a check-raise?)

Basically the only river card we like is a deuce, and although we'd make a six high straight, two higher straights are already possible, and the 2 would enable a club flush. I think it's a close decision between folding and calling.

If I thought it would only cost two big bets to see the show down, it would be worth a call. But if I thought SB would come out swinging on the fourth betting round and then would be raised by BTN, I'd opt for folding.

Close decision.

Buzz

Since the kids these days like to call 2 off the button the "hijack," I'm guessing he's calling 3 off the button the "lowjack." One of the more annoying things about the poker boom IMO is the use of these new goofy terms that aren't intuitive even to people who've been playing for a long time.

Buzz,
From what I read, Hero has A45T, and not a pair of aces.

For my money, hero really needs to dump it on the turn, as he's probably drawing to two outs for the low half the pot (I've gotta assume the numerous callers means one, probably two, nut lows; particularly if he doesn't have the two aces Buzz thought he had), and may well be drawing dead for the high half of the pot. But I've been surprised before.

Buzz,
1. Ranks- My hand is A45T, not AA45.
2. Suits- My hand features the 4 and the 5.
The flop was rainbow with no spade.
I added these two suits so that posters could share their thoughts on the preflop play, or more specifically: whether or not I should have played this hand.
As far as I remember, I did not have a club in my hand and the complete hand was: A45T.
3. Players involved- LJ, Hero (HJ), BTN, SB and BB saw the flop. LJ, Hero, BTN and SB saw the turn. CO folded before the flop, so only one player was behind me, after the flop.
4. Raising on the flop- My raise on the flop was mainly designed to slow the action (and specifically the bettor, given what I know about her: easily intimidated, and what I know she knows about me: tight player who usually gives action when he has the goods) down, in order to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, something like a free card play.
Other reasons for raising on the flop: there is only one player behind me, if I knock her out, I get the initiative and the last position.
Raising may also clean my *7* outs.
5. LJ- lowjack. better than "MP+2", or whatever, IMO.

You're correct. I don't know how I came up with the pair of aces. Obviously A45T is not nearly as good a starting hand as AA45.

Thanks for the correction.

However, for me, at least, that's still a playable starting hand. And nothing much changes. The pair of aces wasn't much good when four opponents saw this particular flop. And the ace-ten combo is still not much good after this particular flop. It's even worse than the pair of aces.

I still don't fault Hero's raise on the second betting round. But then it doesn't work.

And then after the turn, the low straight draw is not good either and Hero is more or less out of gas.

I agree it would be a good fold on the turn.

Buzz

Hero faces 3 opponents going to the turn.
to two of them (LJ and BTN) Hero gives no credit at all, as they play literally anything and go to the end literally all the time.
The only opponent that Hero gives some credit to would be the SB, who would bet all sorts of decent hands on the flop, A2** would be among them,
But she would complete before the flop with the vast majority of her hands.
Is the turn a fold?

yes

I think whether the turn is a fold or not depends on what Hero expects on the river.

If Hero expects there might be a raise or some jamming on the river, then I think it's a fold.

If not, then I think it's a close decision. Just because LJ and BTN "play literally anything and go to the end literally all the time" does not mean neither of them can have A2** or A4**, but I think a greater danger is if SB comes out swinging on the river and LJ or BTN raise with a nine or ten high straight.

"Yes" in answer to your question is not a bad answer, but I see a bit more than a simple yes or no.

Bottom line: I'd probably generally fold this on the turn.

A question for you. Does "LJ" mean "low jack" to you? Before Beetman suggested it, I had never heard the term before. I don't think most poker players in my games would know what "high jack" meant in terms of poker position. Not a big deal.

Buzz

plan for the river based on the line taken by SB: a) SB bets, Hero folds; b) SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB raises, Hero folds; c) most likely- SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, Hero calls.
In reality, the river brought a 3, pairing the board, and it was checked around. SB showed AA2* (good for low), BTN showed a straight (good for high), LJ and Hero mucked.

I think you may have skipped the 5th post (end) on this thread.

I did.

Not sure how. I guess I was writing my reply when you posted and then I simply posted without first checking to see if someone else had posted in the meantime.

Thanks.

Buzz

These two statements are essentially the gist of many many "trouble hand" scenarios, often when specifically facing a turn bet. Abdul always spoke of learning about poker in plateaus, meaning one would go for a while without learning much, then all of a sudden learn a new concept that quickly improved him/her significantly as a player. Of course the more advanced of a player, the longer you may go between plateaus. One of the big advances I made as a limit O/8 player when I was a decent but not huge winner at 3-6 and getting my feet wet in 10-20 was grasping the two sentences mentioned above.

There are times, including this hand, where it would be an easy turn call if you were all-in, but you may face jamming on the river and the jamming mightn't even indicate your hand is no good. A brick might hit on the river and two T7 jam, and your A4 is good for at least part of the low pot, or the board might pair on the river and two full houses jam and the A4 is good for at least part of the low. And heaven help you if a 7 hits on the river--how in the world are you going to know if you straight is good? That 7 puts a zillion other straights on the board. So a lot of these marginal turn situations where your hand might be good, you simply need to fold because it may be way too expensive to find out if your hand is good on the river.

I don't see how you guys can deem this a fold on the turn...lets look at it mathematically.

On the turn there are 9.5BB in the pot, hero is drawing to 4 for the nut low, 4 for potentially the winning high hand, so lets qualify that as 2 outs...and potentially already has the best low. So lets give him one out for that.

if we are strictly looking at turn action, hero has a must call:

1/9.5 = 10% - pot odds

7/44 = 15% - Outs

Lets say the river bricks and there is another bet

he is still get huge odds on his money and only has to be right less than 1/10 times to make this a profitable call.

1/13.5 = 7%

call call call call imo....

I think what you may be doing is counting half pot outs as scoop outs. If Hero only wins half of the pot,
7/44/2 = ~8% - Outs.

Buzz

Buzz and beetman are offering valuable advice. I'd only add that jamming on cheaper streets might alleviate later problems by permitting a cheaper showdown. In 4-8, this would be dependent on how, or if you could, set up the table.

I like the development of poker jargon, otherwise we'd still be calling AA American Airlines and 95 the Dolly Parton, which lots of new players won't get. And that's not even getting into T4 (good buddy) and that idiot on the WPT broadcasts saying that a person has a "wired pair."

That said, when I hear LJ I think someone's gonna steal my car.

Given the action so far there's a very good chance there's already at least one deuce out there.

I don't understand the hate toward Vince's "wired pair."

I know it makes a lot more sense in the context of stud, but in holdem I take it to mean a pair as hole cards, as opposed to one made by pairing a hole card with a board card.

Simply saying that someone has a pair doesn't make that distinction.

Which, come to think of it, IS similar to the meaning of "wired pair" in stud.

Kinda like "set" as opposed to "trips."

You don't think the action implies the nut low is already in one, maybe two, hands? And a non-club 7 could make straights as high as to the jack, never mind the flushes on a 7.

So, personally, I'd be discounting my "2" and "7" outs by at least 50% (and that's if I'm looking for reasons to call, like hero apparently is) if I had this much time to think it over, I'm treating them altogether as 4 half-pot outs. I have a hard time seeing that this draw could ever be profitable at 21 to 1 odds against for 13.5 BB.

Bottom line: In light of the action, if this isn't a fold at the turn on an unpaired low board, I'm not sure what is.

For what its worth, I think playing loose in a low-limit O8 game is pretty pointless because you are simply paying off the rake and splitting a bunch of pots. You can play tight in these games and people will pay off your real hands, they don't care.

I don't understand why we would raise that flop if we think no one is folding in this game. We have no made hand(okay, a weak low) and a draw with only 4 nut outs at best and probably less. If a 7 comes, there are higher straights with either a 59 or 9T which are not normal O8 holdings, but he said 2 players are playing anything. This doesn't even begin to get into the flush and boat possibilities

I just call the flop, fold the turn.

It depends on your motivation for playing. If you're playing to make money, it's a bit like scheming to pick up the pennies in the pool of a mall water fountain. In other words, it's not worth spending time figuring out how to do it. There's just not enough money involved to make it a worthwhile pursuit.

But if your goal is playing well and improving your game, or just recreation, then what would be pointless as a monetary pursuit has meaning.

That may make no sense to you. Poker books are mostly written by professional poker players, players who make their living playing and teaching poker. And if you ask them their motivation for playing, they'll mostly tell you, "to make money."

But that's not my motivation. The money I win or lose in a $4/$8 game is trivial. The enjoyment I get from trying to beat my opponents is not.

You're right that you can play very tightly and eke out a small profit. And I think you need to learn to do that as a beginner, and fall back on it when necessary. But you'll go nuts from boredom if you play the game too tightly, and finally your regular opponents, even the dull witted ones, will get wise to you and not give you any action when you decide to play a hand.

AT54 is not a hand I'd recommend to a newb. But I'm always going to want to see the flop with that hand. I enjoy watching my opponents play, but it's even more fun for me to be involved in a hand than watching. And I don't expect to get in trouble with this hand (although getting in trouble with any hand is a risk you take when you play).

That's true of some opponents.

Then don't raise. In my humble opinion it's OK not to raise here. (But it's also OK to raise).

If you raise with this hand, other hands with which you may want to raise later in the session are better disguised. And raising may tend to intimidate your opponents, which is generally good for you if it causes them to become more passive. I think intimidated opponents generally play more passively - and if it does, that usually makes it easier for Hero to play correctly on later betting rounds.

Your bottom line here seems fine to me.

Buzz

Sorry if my opening remark was confusing. I am not suggesting to fold this hand preflop for a limp in a loose fullring game. I wouldn't. I was just making a blanket statement that I don't believe playing loose in a low limit fullring O8 game is a winning strategy overall because the OP stated he was playing loose.

I would say if you are someone just looking to go to the casino and splash around some chips purely for fun, O8 is a great game for that. I just don't think those people are posting in this forum.

I never stated I was playing loose. Never mind, don't want to argue with you.

It was the second sentence of your initial post: "Hero- tries to play looser and more aggressive."

Playing selectively looser preflop is good as you learn the game better, but you still can't really chase thinner draws. Aggressive is good too, provided we're talking about raising good draws for value and maybe also learning how to make thin value bets when one or two opponents check to you. One of the biggest mistakes I see tight players make in these loose games is playing big draws passively, like they'll limp in with A23K with a suited ace in late position, or just call with the nut nut draw when they're last to act, which is a huge leak. (It's fine to just call with a big draw if there are a bunch of people to act behind you but calling to close the action is giving money away.)

By "selectively looser preflop," I mean that I wouldn't recommend a beginner play a hand like AKJ4 with a suited king in late position after a bunch of limpers because they could easily get in trouble with a 2nd nut low or a king-high flush draw, but I'm certain an experienced player could profitably play that hand.

I really don't think this looks like a nut low...

You seem to be forgetting that this is live, and people love to go crazy w the nut low. With those two combos...I think if SB had the nut low, he would have fired turn, and if button had the nut low, I think he would have 3 popped the flop.

Instead it seems like button might have a set, or some marginally good high/drawing hand, and SB might be donking just to donk.