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109$ MTT where did I go wrong? 109$ MTT where did I go wrong?

09-17-2010 , 08:40 AM
Both players I see for the first time! Big stack is playing 22/8 with 0.9 agression and shortstack plays 19/14 with 1.3 agression!
Where I messed up in this hand?

Pot-Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Tournament, 125/250 Blinds (9 handed)

MP2 (t20984)
MP3 (t3564)
CO (t7398)
Button (t3200)
SB (t14031)
BB (t3048)
Hero (UTG) (t6000)
UTG+1 (t2868)
MP1 (t7164)

Hero's M: 16.00

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, A, J, 3
Hero calls t250, 2 folds, MP2 calls t250, 2 folds, Button bets t1375, 2 folds, Hero calls t1125, MP2 calls t1125

Flop: (t4500) 3, K, 5 (3 players)
Hero bets t4500, MP2 calls t4500, Button calls t1825 (All-In)

Turn: (t15325) 8 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets t125 (All-In), MP2 calls t125

River: (t15575) K (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t15575

Results:
Button had 4, A, 8, 2 (two pair, Kings and eights).
Hero had Q, A, J, 3 (two pair, Kings and threes).
MP2 had 4, 8, 3, A (two pair, Kings and eights).
Outcome: Button won t7481, MP2 won t8094
109$ MTT where did I go wrong? Quote
09-17-2010 , 09:01 AM
im checking this flop and folding to a big enough bet...theres only 3 clubs that arent splitting the pot for you
109$ MTT where did I go wrong? Quote
09-17-2010 , 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by omaha8shaun
im checking this flop and folding to a big enough bet...theres only 3 clubs that arent splitting the pot for you
+1 on this. Can see why you led it, you normally have a lot of FE in spots like these so you only need to half hit to make it +EV, but this is actually a pretty horrible flop for you on closer analysis, esp facing a PF raiser who will have A2 the majority of the time.

Preflop is okay, A3 is trouble but suited and 3 broadway cards I play it. I prefer to open instead limp in these spots, but it's table dependent and it's certainly not clear that raising is better.
109$ MTT where did I go wrong? Quote
09-17-2010 , 10:21 AM
ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
658,008 trials (Exhaustive)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
AcQdJc3h57.18% 291,777393,86632,539094,891
Ad8h4s2c27.57% 40,80780,788119,228171,53038,437
Ah8c4c3c15.25% 5,43632,859150,49514,560128,708
...
equity before the flop. Hero is well ahead thanks to his *high* being a lot better.
even if we took off the terrible 8 from villian's hand and gave them much more useful cards, Hero would still have pot equity edge:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
AcQdJc3h37.49% 159,677235,30816,574088,485
Ad4s2cK40.40% 143,188189,47319,400168,62828,027
Ah4c3c522.11% 31,185142,57630,04528,667115,473

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: K53
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
AcQdJc3h32.71% 100,026243,02464,71504,717
Ad4s2c*47.41% 132,272146,92271,831312,082117,217
Ah4c3c*19.88% 21,39881,504126,2690117,217
...
for some reason I couldn't run a full simulation with all 4 cards to all 3 players. So instead, I took off the worst card for each opponent and put a random card in, and Hero's still in decent shape after the flop.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
AcQdJc3h34.22% 121,508201,42429,76253,44353,409
A2**, AA**35.95% 102,258174,02024,873137,29782,845
AK4*, A2**, A3**, KK**29.83% 84,152185,21426,19231,15998,610
...
before the flop against ranges of hands.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: K53
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
AcQdJc3h32.08% 88,466271,59522,6061,54620,178
A2**, AA**36.31% 70,220109,76828,574209,713161,598
AK4*, A2**, A3**, KK**31.61% 69,067176,44336,17254,460156,704
...
after the flop against ranges of hands.
and lastly, for those who claim hero has very few outs, imagine an offsuit T on the turn:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi/Lo Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
board: K53T
Hand Pot equity Scoops Wins HiTies HiWins Lo Ties Lo
AcQdJc3h38.33% 169,433255,28538,81900
A2**, AA**31.17% 77,107114,17633,955148,80397,826
AK4*, A2**, A3**, KK**30.50% 87,977174,48441,44237,42797,826
109$ MTT where did I go wrong? Quote
09-17-2010 , 10:35 AM
Whats the motivation for limping this hand pre? If you are trying to get a cheap flop then calling a huge raise makes no sense. If your willing to 'gamble it up' with this hand then you should be open raising imo and taking a little more control. The main problem with the flat is that it invites MP into the hand - when being HU will obviously give u the greatest chance of scoop or chop.

To raise pre or not is of course a matter of style/table conditions but imo:

open raising > limp folding > limp reraise all in > limp calling large raise with MP still to act

Now flatting when MP is not in the hand is not so bad cause you can donk many flops and hope for some FE vs button.

Flop is very tough since you would of course like to call button (or pref bet into him) but you dont want to play for stacks vs MP. But is there a way to achieve this? I dont think so - you are effectively stuck in the middle. If you plan on calling buttons shove then i guess betting all in is much better. Maybe check raising all in projects more strength idk but if MP has any hand he isnt going anywhere.

Personally i think the main mistake here was playing a big pot oop multiway with a marginal hand. Different pre flop action (open raise, limp/fold) could have prevented this.

Bob
109$ MTT where did I go wrong? Quote
09-17-2010 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallhallen
where did I go wrong?
On the second betting round.

A club flush draw alone is not enough to continue after this flop. You basically tried a semi-bluff and it didn't work.

Buzz
109$ MTT where did I go wrong? Quote

      
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