Villain is occasional player without ton of reads. SB is regular and pretty tight solid. I pick up a lot of equity on turn.

I assume pot turn is correct here?


Poker Stars $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $92.35
SB: $148.35
BB: $119.60
UTG: $104.20
Hero (CO): $115.60

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is CO with A T 3 7
UTG raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, SB calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($10.00) 2 Q 6 (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $7, Hero calls $7, SB calls $7

Turn: ($31.00) K (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($31.00) 7 (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $21, SB folds, UTG calls $21

The difficulty here is counting outs. Some outs are worth more than others.
• J,T,9 are your best outs. (You're going to scoop with any of these).
• 8,5,4 are next. These are nut-nut outs. You win high uncontested but may have to split low. So sometimes you scoop and sometimes you win 3/4 or (less often) 2/3.
When you win 3/4 of the pot, in terms of fresh money initiated on the turn with two paying opponents, you actually win 5B/4.
When you win 2/3 of the pot, in terms of fresh money initiated on the turn with two paying opponents, you actually win B.
I realize that's confusing. But we're not going to worry about it, as you'll see below when we "keep it simple."
• J,J,J are next. These are nut-high outs, but sometimes you'll get tied for high. Sometimes you scoop and sometimes you win half or break even.
But to "keep it simple," I'm going to count all nine of the above listed outs as scoop outs. In terms of the bet, whatever you bet gets multiplied by two because you have two opponents.
Where B is what you bet and you have two opponents who are probably going to call the bet, I'm saying you win 2B for each one of these nine scoop outs when you scoop. Thus these nine outs collectively are worth 9*2B=+18B in terms of how much of the fresh money initiated into the pot you win. (It's actually not quite that much because of the sometimes winning 3/4 or 2/3, but this is going to more or less even out with some rounding below).

• 3 is next in value. This is worth half the pot. The high half. But you probably lose the low. You win B/2
• 8,7,54,
8,7,54,
8,7,54, are next. You win low but somebody else wins high. You either win B/2, lose B/4 (when you get quartered), or lose B/2 (when you get sixthed) with two paying opponents.
To keep it simple, I'm going to count all thirteen of the above outs the same, and all worth B/4. That's a sort of weighted average.

• Q and 6 are next in value. In fixed limit you either win 2B or lose 2B, depending on whether someone makes a full house with the board pairing or not. It's more complicated in pot limit because the size of the bet on the fourth betting round may be bigger than the size of the bet on the third betting round. But at any rate, I'm not going to count these two flush outs that pair the board one way or the other.

• All twenty other cards are simply losers for Hero. In terms of fresh money initiated on the turn, Hero loses B, the amount bet.

Totaling we have four groups the +2B group, the +B/4 group, the +0B group and the -B group.

And then we multiply through to get the total. If it's positive, we bet. If it's negative, we check/call.
9*2B+13*B/4+2*0B-20*B=+1.25B

+ anything means we bet.

I think I can make an article out of this and explain it more clearly. If you can follow what I'm doing, it's a nifty short cut method for counting outs for purposes of initiating fresh money into the pot or not when you're drawing (which is often). I'll work on it some more.

At any rate, for the purposes of your line check, you should definitely bet the turn.

Buzz

I think peeling the flop is marginal at best - I would have folded. Checking through the turn for a free card is the best play you could hope for. Pot river is fine and hope you don't get 1/4.

I disagree. Hero should bet this turn. See discussion above for explanation.

Buzz

through all the stuff you do, how can you just flat out assume both people call ur turn bet? If only one calls your equation is negative.

Good point.

You stumped me.

And by the same token, they both might fold. Thus there are at least several possibilities.

Back to the drawing board.

Thanks.

Buzz

call preflop

fold flop

either big bet( > 3/4 pot) on turn or check is ok

pot bet on river

I used to be in the camp that would just auto-bet this turn when checked to. In a limit game I think not betting the turn would be a mistake. Then I realized I'm doing 1 main thing when I do that, one thing with 3 parts: A) hoping everyone folds B) praying to make my hand if they don't C) charging myself to DRAW.

I'm now in the camp that realizes I have a nice draw that I don't want to fold, but at the end of the day it is just a draw and at these limits folding is not usually in the other guy's repetoire as often as I'd like (thus I don't think I have enough FE to make a PSB - and any less of a bet is going to get callers most likely, even a PSB will often get callers). I've already made a minor error calling the flop, but we are given a nice little present on the turn to make up for that error on the flop by capitalizing on villains error of giving us a free card instead of charging us to draw. At some point if we know exactly villains tendencies we would know if a semi-bluff on the turn would be worthwhile, but we just don't - and rarely we will run into some goon who will c/r the turn (very rarely, I know) and really fuxxor us up and put us to the test.

I'm all for betting draws, betting on the come, semi-bluffing, but I like to do it a lot less on the turn, in position after multiple bogies have showed interest in a flop. There are times to bluff - one of the best is when you are pushing the action on the previous street as villain cannot know if you have the goods or are just c-betting like a mofo. Here you were the one drawing and no draws hit, so if you bluff it looks a lot more like what it is.

As played I'm probably betting 20, which will leave you around a psb left against utg to shove river if a brick falls off and you so desire to.

Assani,

Would you really fold on flop with position to a 3/4 c-bet from pfr when you hit your gin card (2) and have 2 backdoor flushes (one of them the nut flush)?

Just checking......

What you put pfr range as?

I'm hijacking the intended target of your question, but I recommended folding the flop as well. The real reason folding the flop is the best option is because you are not closing the action. With one player to act behind you, you maybe be just giving away $7 dollars. If the player left to act PSB re-raises you have an insta-muck. If you were closing the action, peeling here with a bet & call in front of you would be much safer, but would also give you more info that you are likely drawing with another lo draw in the pot. All-in-all I think you hand is too weak to peel this flop, but in this situation not closing the action, it is definitely a smarter play to fold the flop.

It would be an altogether different situation had you been the pre-flop raiser and were driving the action.

Everyone seems to be seeing spooks under the covers......

Closing the action/not closing the action.

The wager is only $7 that sb checked with a monster, utg followed through, hero flat calls only for sb to jump out and declare an absolute monster by c-r.

If so, I agree, I fold my $7 - put a note on sb and move to next hand.

But this is a more uncommon (not rare, but uncommon) scenario.
More likely, hero flat calls, sb decides to fold as already shown weakness by checking or comes along, showing even more weakness (maybe)

When I call with suited A3....I really really want to see at least 2 low cards - one being a number 2! Not an ace, not a 3, not really even 3 low cards that give me 2nd best low...lol

Now I am being given a 2 and a 6, with 2 possible flush draws, with best position for the next 2 streets, and utg villain is giving me a bit of discount rope - maybe to hang me, maybe to hang him. But I get to watch everyone first (as long as sb plays ball )

Yes, I would like to have hit a pair with my nut low draw.
Yes, I would like a flush draw etc

But its not disasterous and a seven or a , even a 4 or 5 gives me options.

It was because of this I questioned the insta-fold on the flop.

I would need to know that utg (maybe sb) are willing to stack off oop.
If it is the usual ps nut peddler, I prolly fold as i am way behind.
(AA3 or A23 minimum)

But if villains are not squeaky tight, I like to play this type of hand.

With ace-ten high, you're just asking to be quartered by drawing to this. Plus you'll have to fold the turn quite a bit when no 4, 5, 7, or 8 comes....theres only 15 of those cards in the deck(15/45 = .33%), and theres only 3 cards in the deck(the 7s) that help you in both directions. And then theres also a person behind you still to act on the flop. All of these negatives don't outweigh the slight positive of the fact that sometimes you'll be able to bet mediocre high hands off the pot once you hit your low or that you'll sometimes hit runner-runner flush.

My main criterion for deciding to bet the turn in these spots is how I'd feel if someone made a pot-size check-raise. In this particular case I think we can *just* call it (because, as well as our scoop outs, the nut low draw is probably good), so I would not hesitate to go ahead and build the pot on the turn.

Even without counting the outs and calculating the turn spot as exact as Buzz, I would always bet that turn. I would always think that I have to protect my hand vs possible sets and more important vs possible low draws. It cannot be correct to give these hands free cards.

In addition, this spot would be a good spot to bet and take a shot for the whole pot with a not so good hand. If I bet sometimes in these spots with not so good hands to steal the pot, I have to bet with nuts for sure!

Huh? Protect what hand? You don't have a hand on the turn, just a draw. You are not giving free cards, you need one!

i like a turn bet here a lot if you arent getting check/raised a reasonable amount even though you might not be an equity favourite here.

I would bet about half the pot on the turn. This is because:
1) You have more than 33% equity, so getting money into the pot is good
2) The others may both fold
3) A weak made hand may fold, leaving you against a draw you are dominating (and then you can either punish it when it hits, or win a showdown when you both miss, or bluff it off on the river, etc.)
4) Even if someone makes a pot-sized check-raise you are still getting correct odds to call.
Checking the turn just loses value IMO.

This is the line that I take. Sure you're gonna have some hands where you get called by only of the villans, but the number of times you take the whole pot down, or get called by both more than make up for it.

Regarding Buzz's comment I disagree that the high hearts are the best cards on the river. Sure you scoop, but you'll get no action. The low hearts give the possibility of winning 3/4 or 2/3 of a much bigger pot.

Based on the value of your hand on the flop you should fold but if you take into consideration that you also have position and what did happen on the turn could happen, you can sway more towards the call.

On the turn you bet using position strong... and river is easy value bet.

there are no nuts involved with hero and the turn. you wouldn't be protecting anything and you wouldn't be betting the nuts...