A Safe Space to Discuss Safe Spaces - Page 141 - Politics and Economics

If we refer to the Howard University commencement speech, then his first advice is basically that they should make sure they don't lose perspective about the progress that's been made, and that loss of perspective and an over-emphasis on ideology can be counter-productive. He encourages them to engage in concrete political organizing.

His previous comments at a town hall are less fleshed out, but his primary criticism is really the same as at Howard: he thinks it's a bad idea to try to win by silencing opponents.

That's an entirely valid point, and as far as I'm aware none of the main participants in this thread disagree with it. But Obama also encourages Howard university graduates to speak out, to fight racism, to organize, and to create change. He's not telling them they shouldn't call anything racist, or that they should be especially concerned with protecting the feelings of people they're arguing with. He's not commenting on specific conceptual constructs like safe spaces or microaggressions. His advice is more narrowly focused, and mostly concerned with keeping perspective and not shutting down free speech so tightly that students never have to be exposed to disagreeable views.

Don't forget about the mutiple times he's repeated many of the criticisms from the Atlantic article, panning trigger warnings, saying students shouldn't be coddled, etc. https://www.thefire.org/transcript-p...oints-of-view/

And it's another mistake if you think I've been arguing against student activism. I've been very specific about supporting their causes and speaking out, I raised my hands with them in Ferguson, and many of the critics I've cited are civil rights activists. The criticisms are about the means many of them are using that attempt to censor others from doing the same, and prohibiting themselves from listening to the other side.

07-06-2016 , 07:22 PM

#3502

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,078

Your link is better because it has a more complete transcript, but it's the same town hall meeting that I linked. The words "trigger warning" do not appear.

07-06-2016 , 07:31 PM

#3503

FoldnDark

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Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

So, you don't support having a personal attack rule at all, you merely assert that given that such a rule exists, it should preclude calling people racist?

I find that hard to reconcile with your previous dissatisfaction with PU.

I don't think it should be needed, but since so many posters in here don't seem to understand something I'm sure both of us learned in fourth grade, to attack arguments not arguers, I'm happy for it to be in the rules, so long as it's enforced equally. Otherwise, if not, and people want to needlessly attack each other, like in PU, clogging up threads, then those posts could be deleted as off topic or trolling, so long as there was some semblance of fairness behind it.

Btw, I know modding is difficult, and it's annoying when people bitch about it. Wookie is being generous not to ban me again, I assume because this is on topic. That said, he should also recognize he's not applying that rule equally, and maybe his strong ideals won't let him. If mat cared about this forum he'd add a conservative moderator to balance things out. What do I know, though. It's politics. Maybe there is no fair way to do it.

07-06-2016 , 07:37 PM

#3504

FoldnDark

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Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

Your link is better because it has a more complete transcript, but it's the same town hall meeting that I linked. The words "trigger warning" do not appear.

Come on man. He's practically reading the article to them.

Quote:

Or they don't wanna read a book if it is offensive to African Americans, or somehow sends a demeaning signal towards women. And you know, I don't agree with that either. I don't agree that you, when you become college students, need to be coddled and protected from different points of view.

07-06-2016 , 10:27 PM

#3505

LetsGambool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

Don't bother. This was explained multiple times 4500 posts ago.

07-06-2016 , 11:57 PM

#3506

goofyballer

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FoldnDark

Sure I have. Thedemands.org has long lists of student demands to censor other students including the microaggression "All Lives Matter."

Foldn was raised by wolves, and/or is a super intellectual thinker who came here to have intellectual discussions who has literally no idea what real world context might exist surrounding those words.

07-07-2016 , 12:02 AM

#3507

uke_master

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Is all lives matter even a microaggression? Like it doesn't fit the bill of an unintended utterance of the dominant culture that is oblivious to the offence and stigmatisation it places on minority subcultures. It is directly an open **** you to the black lives matter movement.

But lol at fold either way for being mad about this.

07-07-2016 , 12:06 AM

#3508

goofyballer

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Yeah I think adios might call "all lives matter" a centiaggression.

07-07-2016 , 11:10 AM

#3509

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,078

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoldnDark

Come on man. He's practically reading the article to them.

Given the timing of his town hall remarks, it's reasonable to hear the word "coddle" as an allusion to the article. On the other hand, in both the Howard U speech and the town hall remarks he focused on one particular concrete criticism: disinviting speakers, and his criticism is pretty narrow: college students shouldn't be overly protected from exposure to differing viewpoints. He could have talked about microaggressions or safe spaces if he wanted to. He didn't. You aren't entitled to put words in his mouth just because you want him to have said them.

07-07-2016 , 11:35 AM

#3510

LetsGambool

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Obama also didn't share FoldN's view that disinvited speakers were getting their free speech rights violated. He was, instead, making the point that students should be using their time at college to hear speakers with many viewpoints, including those they disagree with, in order to strengthen their arguments against racism, bigotry, etc.

But this has been explained to FoldN numerous times, but he's all-in on these wrongheaded appeals to authority in his neverending quest to turn twoplustwo into a safe space for bigots despite Mason and the Sklanskies' wishes to the contrary.

07-07-2016 , 05:21 PM

#3511

FoldnDark

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Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

I doubt it will surprise you much that I find this response largely misses the point. Obama pretty clearly expressed his disagreement with students desires to avoid reading material they might find offensive or upsetting, which is what trigger warnings are designed to aid. In fact, he encourages them to read such materials. No, we shouldn't consider that his final stance on trigger warnings, which I'm sure would be more nuanced. As you pointed out, he also very clearly disagrees with disinviting speakers, a practice many have argued in favor of in here while simultaneously claiming to agree with Obama. It's perplexing.

Moving on to microaggressions. Again, criticisms are many, both of their specific contents and their uses. We can go around all day about whether or not a term should be offensive, how much and under which contexts, and even whether that offense should always be avoided. Indeed, those conversations could be very instructive and perhaps part of the benefit of making such lists. But other criticisms stem from how lists of microaggressions are used, and enforced. When there are demands for censorship and over 100 schools who encourage their students to report on students who offend them, I'm afraid we're crossing into the realm of their abuse. You can read more about speech codes at thefire.org, and bias response teams for reporting offensive students here and here.

Quote:

More than 100 colleges and universities have Bias Response Teams, which aim to foster “a safe and inclusive environment” by providing “advocacy and support to anyone on campus who has experienced, or been a witness of, an incident of bias or discrimination.” These teams have multiple missions, including educational “prevention,” investigating alleged bias incidents, disciplining offenders, and organizing “coping events” after such incidents.

Quote:

A bias incident can occur “whether the act is intentional or unintentional,” meaning that “microaggressions” (subtle, often unintended slights) are squarely within bias incident territory. All “verbal, written or physical” conduct is fair game, whether it transpires in actual spaces such as cafeterias and classrooms or in the endless virtual world of social media. Examples include “symbols, language and imagery objectifying women” (University of Utah); “name calling,” “avoiding or excluding others” and “making comments on social media about someone’s political affiliations/beliefs,” (Syracuse); “I don’t see skin color,” “I was joking. Don’t take things so seriously,” and “Thanks, Sweetie.” (University of Oregon). Given the expansive definitions of bias incidents, it is no surprise that some dubious complaints are filed: Last month, at the University of Michigan, a hall director reported a “phallic snow object.” “It is the height of privilege and entitlement to be obsessively concerned with utterly inconsequential events such as this,” a member of the university’s residential staff said.

Last edited by FoldnDark; 07-07-2016 at 05:38 PM. Reason: Quotes

07-07-2016 , 05:28 PM

#3512

MrWookie

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Encouraging students to hear multiple views is not the same as prohibiting students from disinvitating speakers or disagreements about how to allocate scarce resources.

07-07-2016 , 05:42 PM

#3513

FoldnDark

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Encouraging students to hear multiple views is not the same as prohibiting students from disinvitating speakers or disagreements about how to allocate scarce resources.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...university-new

Quote:

I know a couple years ago, folks on this campus got upset that Condoleezza Rice was supposed to speak at a commencement. Now, I don't think it's a secret that I disagree with many of the foreign policies of Dr. Rice and the previous administration. But the notion that this community or the country would be better served by not hearing from a former Secretary of State, or shutting out what she had to say -- I believe that’s misguided. (Applause.) I don't think that's how democracy works best, when we're not even willing to listen to each other. (Applause.) I believe that's misguided.

I don't know how much clearer he could get.

07-07-2016 , 05:43 PM

#3514

MrWookie

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Yes, my statement is still true.

07-07-2016 , 07:28 PM

#3515

FoldnDark

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Whether or not students and administrators should be allowed to disinvite speakers is a much different question than if they should disinvite speakers.

For the nth time, I fully support students' right to protest anything they want, and I encourage them to vociferously protest speakers with whom they disagree. But supporting protesters doesn't mean always agreeing with what they are protesting. If they are protesting against kittens, for example, I will almost always disagree. Kittens are so sweet! Except these guys:

Spoiler:

I may even agree that the speaker they are protesting is horrible, but if they are protesting against that speaker speaking, I disagree with that, and so does Obama:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...nscript-222931

Quote:

So don’t try to shut folks out, don’t try to shut them down, no matter how much you might disagree with them. There's been a trend around the country of trying to get colleges to disinvite speakers with a different point of view, or disrupt a politician’s rally. Don’t do that -- no matter how ridiculous or offensive you might find the things that come out of their mouths. Because as my grandmother used to tell me, every time a fool speaks, they are just advertising their own ignorance. Let them talk. Let them talk. If you don’t, you just make them a victim, and then they can avoid accountability.

That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t challenge them. Have the confidence to challenge them, the confidence in the rightness of your position. There will be times when you shouldn’t compromise your core values, your integrity, and you will have the responsibility to speak up in the face of injustice. But listen. Engage. If the other side has a point, learn from them. If they’re wrong, rebut them. Teach them. Beat them on the battlefield of ideas. And you might as well start practicing now, because one thing I can guarantee you -- you will have to deal with ignorance, hatred, racism, foolishness, trifling folks. (Laughter.) I promise you, you will have to deal with all that at every stage of your life. That may not seem fair, but life has never been completely fair. Nobody promised you a crystal stair. And if you want to make life fair, then you've got to start with the world as it is.

07-07-2016 , 07:35 PM

#3516

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,078

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoldnDark

Obama pretty clearly expressed his disagreement with students desires to avoid reading material they might find offensive or upsetting, which is what trigger warnings are designed to aid.

The purpose of trigger warnings is not to discourage people from reading things they have political disagreements with. Your extrapolation is unwarranted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoldnDark

Moving on to microaggressions...

Nothing you said here is responsive to my posts. I would note that in your response to Wookie you found another instance of Obama specifically criticizing disinviting speakers on the basis of political disagreement. The fact that he repeatedly criticizes that one particular element of campus culture while saying nothing about trigger warnings, microaggressions, or safe spaces strengthens my point that you are going well beyond his statements in your conclusions.

07-07-2016 , 07:38 PM

#3517

MrWookie

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OK, so students saying a speaker should be disinvited is perhaps misguided but is fundamentally a disagreement over how to allocate scarce resources rather than an affront to free speech or even necessarily the creation of a safe space. Glad we have finally wrapped that up.

07-09-2016 , 03:52 AM

#3518

FoldnDark

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Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

The purpose of trigger warnings is not to discourage people from reading things they have political disagreements with. Your extrapolation is unwarranted.

Perhaps trigger warnings aren't intended to discourage people from reading things they have political disagreements with, at least not in your mind, yet many trigger warnings have potential to do just that. Such as these:

http://privilege101.tumblr.com/triggers.html

Quote:

Talk of drug use (legal, illegal or psychiatric)
Discussions of -isms, shaming, or hatred of any kind (racism, classism, hatred of cultures/ethnicities that differ from your own, sexism, hatred of sexualities or genders that differ from your own, anti-multiple, non-vanilla shaming, sex positive shaming, fat shaming/body image shaming, neuroatypical shaming)
Any time slurs are used (this includes words like “stupid” or “dumb”, which are still widely considered to be socially acceptable)
Trans* degendering, or anti-trans* views of bodies
Dismissal of lived oppressions, marginalization, illness or difference
Discussions of sex (even consensual)

And stifling political discourse is only a part of the broader problem being grappled with regarding their use. Plenty of psychologists and educators aren't on board with trigger warnings:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...7.2016.1116850

Quote:

As a profession that increasingly relies on evidence-based practices, it is also important to examine the extant research on trauma treatment. A comprehensive examination of treatment for PTSD has shown exposure therapy to be the most effective intervention for those who have experienced sexual assault. Yet trigger warnings accomplish exactly the opposite by allowing trauma victims to avoid all mention and images related to the trauma, which may in fact have the opposite effect and be reinforcing. In addition, there is sound evidence that reorganizing one’s identity around a traumatic event can exacerbate PTSD and lead to poorer mental health outcomes (McNally, 2014). If we are to foster resilience in our students, trigger warnings may have the opposite effect and keep them embedded in a culture of victimization.

https://psmag.com/trigger-warnings-o...72e#.a1yxhfcda

Quote:

A trigger warning, according to the American Association of University Professors, “creates a repressive, chilly climate for critical thinking in the classroom.” Eight hundred members of the Modern Language Association and College Art Association were polled about trigger warnings. Sixty-two percent of respondents said such alerts will have a negative affect on academic freedom.

Some claim that such warnings are not censorship since they only give notice for a person to choose to avoid exposure. However, anytime a person is telling others what cannot be said, read, or watched, it is censorship. In this case, students are censoring themselves from opportunities to learn. Saying I should not discuss assisted suicide in a bioethics course is censoring everyone in that classroom. The popular use of trigger warnings to avoid new ideas diminishes its power for those who have a psychological need for help. Students with a real need should document it with the dean of students, who can let professors know quietly so as to preserve confidentiality.

The AAUP says that such warnings are “infantilizing and anti-intellectual.” Universities, faculty, and scholarly organizations need to follow the lead of the faculty at American University, which passed a resolution against trigger warnings. If a student has a documented need, universities already have systems in place to help. Students must be exposed to ideas that challenge their own beliefs and learn to engage in civil debate. After all, they are the leaders of tomorrow.

But you've read all this already, and you're still free to disagree. What you haven't yet explained is if you do, and why.

07-09-2016 , 09:22 AM

#3519

LetsGambool

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Lol privilege101tumbler.com

What random Google search are you spamming us with this morning?

07-09-2016 , 09:29 AM

#3520

Paul D

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Well, you can't say he doesn't cite his sources lol

07-09-2016 , 09:30 AM

#3521

Jbrochu

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Waiting for FoldN's thesis on why it's ok for cops to shoot black people because everybody knows they drive around with broken taillights waaay more than white people. It's just obvious.

07-09-2016 , 12:44 PM

#3522

Trolly McTrollson

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LOOOOOOOOL @ a grown-ass man unironically citing "http://privilege101.tumblr.com/triggers.html"

07-09-2016 , 01:28 PM

#3523

FoldnDark

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From the Oberlin College official policy on trigger warnings, abandoned due to faculty concerns it would stifle academic freedom:

http://web.archive.org/web/201312221...or-faculty.dot

Quote:

Understand triggers, avoid unnecessary triggers, and provide trigger warnings.
A trigger is something that recalls a traumatic event to an individual. Reactions to triggers can take many different forms; individuals may feel any range of emotion during and after a trigger. Experiencing a trigger will almost always disrupt a student’s learning and may make some students feel unsafe in your classroom.
Triggers are not only relevant to sexual misconduct, but also to anything that might cause trauma. Be aware of racism, classism, sexism, heterosexism, cissexism, ableism, and other issues of privilege and oppression. Realize that all forms of violence are traumatic, and that your students have lives before and outside your classroom, experiences you may not expect or understand.
Anything could be a trigger—a smell, song, scene, phrase, place, person, and so on. Some triggers cannot be anticipated, but many can.
Remove triggering material when it does not contribute directly to the course learning goals.
Sometimes a work is too important to avoid. For example, Chinua Achebe’s Things Fall Apart is a triumph of literature that everyone in the world should read. However, it may trigger readers who have experienced racism, colonialism, religious persecution, violence, suicide, and more. Here are some steps you, as a professor, can take so that your class can examine this source in the most productive and safe manner possible:
Issue a trigger warning. A trigger warning is a statement that warns people of a potential trigger, so that they can prepare for or choose to avoid the trigger. Issuing a trigger warning will also show students that you care about their safety.
You may hesitate to issue a trigger warning, or try to compose a vague trigger warning, because you feel it might also be a “spoiler.” A trigger warning does not need to give everything away. If you’re warning people about the issue of suicide in Things Fall Apart, you can write, “Trigger warning: This book contains a scene of suicide…” You don’t necessarily need to “give away” the plot. However, even if a trigger warning does contain a spoiler, experiencing a trigger is always, always worse than experiencing a spoiler.
Try to avoid using graphic language yourself within the trigger warning, but do give students a hint about what might be triggering about the material. If you say something like, “This movie might be upsetting to some of you,” that can a) sound patronizing and b) lead everyone who’s experienced trauma to feel like they might have a terrible time. Try instead saying, “This movie contains scenes of racism, including slurs and even physical violence, but I believe that the movie itself is working to expose and stand against racism and I think it is important to our work here.”
Tell students why you have chosen to include this material, even though you know it is triggering. For example:
“…We are reading this work in spite of the author’s racist frameworks because his work was foundational to establishing the field of anthropology, and because I think together we can challenge, deconstruct, and learn from his mistakes.”
“…This documentary challenges heterosexism in an important way. It is vital to discuss this issue. I think watching and discussing this documentary will help us become better at challenging heterosexism ourselves.”
Strongly consider developing a policy to make triggering material optional or offering students an alterative assignment using different materials. When possible, help students avoid having to choose between their academic success and their own wellbeing.

07-09-2016 , 01:58 PM

#3524

uke_master

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so we have jumped from tumblr blogs to abandonded guidelines? GOOD WORK FOLD. GOOD WORK. And like heck, that not even a policy you quoted seems pretty ****ing reasonable. Thankfully I teach math so I don't have to worry about this, but it seems pretty reasonable to suggest that you say "hey this thing is important for these reasons but it contains racism that we will investigate".

07-09-2016 , 02:38 PM

#3525

PocketChads

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Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 22,451

Oberlin is literally the the most "thing that FoldN is afraid of" kind of university and they LITERALLY ABANDONED THE GUIDELINES BECAUSE THEY PLACE A HIGHER PRIORITY ON ACADEMIC FREEDOM

I mean really, FoldN. Literally really.

Literally.

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