Old style Union Guys Who Remember The Old Days



Auto Workers get drunk and high on their lunch break everyday (why don't they keep the beer in a cooler instead of wasting so much time buying it everyday?)


They got fired, but still going on


But all rehired

This just shows you how awesome it is to be in a Union as opposed to not. Do you think you would ever have this job security without being in a Union? It is basically impossible to get fired. You'd have to kill someone.

Don't you still collect your pension while in prison?

It seems there is some debate in libertarian circles about how this should be viewed. The knee jerk reaction seems to be, "This hurts unions, unions bad, so right-to-work good." This is apparently Rand Paul's view. (Let's ignore any debate about how libertarian he actually is, plenty of other threads for that.)

I disagree. To me it's fairly cut and dry. Right-to-work legislation prohibits voluntary agreements between private parties. Therefore, libertarians must necessarily oppose it.

What say you, forum freedom fighters?

are the non-union members "voluntarily" paying the fees or were they mandatory?

In a world without the massive labor regulation apparatus we already have, yeah, RTW would be pretty stupid. However, since unions have a ton of things written into law that massively benefit them, the situation changes pretty drastically. The current setup we have is far from anything resembling a voluntary agreement.

Basically, once a company care fire everyone in a union, unions should be able to setup a contract that allows only the union to work there.

unions bad? I disagree.


what voluntary agreement is being prohibited?

The joke on the pro-union side is that Right-to-Work legistlation makes sense.

A right-to-work law is a statute in the United States of America that prohibits union security agreements, or agreements between labor unions and employers that govern the extent to which an established union can require employees' membership, payment of union dues, or fees as a condition of employment, either before or after hiring.

This is why when these statues go up to vote, in plain text, that they pass.

Oh noezzz, union can't force employees to pay union dues.

You would think that if the Union was so super good and lollipop rainbows that you would have near 100% compliance anyway because it's just a good deal for the employees.

Cold, hard truths: The majority of Union members don't want to be in the Union and they don't want to pay for the Union.

this. I mean it's pretty futile to try to figure out if what is essentially one tiny piece of the overall labor regulation regime is "good" or "bad" (from the perspective the OP is asking about, at least) because that law doesn't exist in a vacuum.

So, you want to attribute the position of someone who is not a libertarian, to libertarians? But, you don't want to hear any fuss about how he's not a libertarian, got it.

There is no reason that unions should=bad. People may have differing feelings toward unions, but I don't think many libertarians, actual libertarians, view private sector unions as inherently bad. Labor and ownership should be able to come to whatever voluntary agreement they want, absent of any government protections for either side.

As far as RTW laws go, specifically Michigan, it really sucks that the law gets applied to private sector unions, but not some public sector unions.

But they sure as **** want the benefits from the union.

grunch

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/41...ebate-1269234/

Yes, every time they turn up for work and dont quit they are voluntarily paying the fees.

If they dont want to be in the union they can quit and let someone else get the union job. There are plenty of companies that dont use unions, go find a job in one of those.

Here is the truth, right to work in the long term takes away the right of a private employer to negotiate with a union by doing everything it can to bust that union and in the short term it allows some employees to literally steal from other employees when they selfishly take the benefits of unionisation and collective bargaining while not paying the cost of it.

Put simply right to work is legalised theft and there is a reason why liberals and the true libertarians dont support it.

From the Wiki summary on right to work laws:


Sounds great to me? Pretty sure I qualify as a true-libertarian, have my Swastikas and white sheets and everything.

Interesting phrasing given that historically the groups who were against unions did in fact have swastikas and white sheets given unions have been one of the most important driving forces for civil rights in American history not least of all in the Civil Rights movement of the 60s.

MLK Jr.

To find groups that have done more to help people in American history you have to be looking at groups like the NAACP and the ACLU - both of which were (and are) also opposed by the same fake libertarians who support Right To Work. The whole point of the libertarian movement is to raise up the little guy and Right To Work laws directly limit that. If you support these laws you are not a libertarian, you are whatever Ikes calls himself today. Neo-Indepentarian or whatever.

Super interesting philliam. Now why is it ok for unions to require people to join their union in order to work somewhere while its not ok for a company to fire someone because they are in a union?

For the exact same reason its ok to shoot someone in self defence but it isnt ok to shoot someone for fun.

But no one is being required to join a union. They arent going out and shanghaiing people at random on the street, these people have applied to work at a company and that company has a union.

Say I work in an office and they have a dress code but I dont want to wear a suit and tie and would prefer to wear jeans - where is my right to work law?

The problem is that preference selection only goes one way Philliam, which is why you never actually answered my question. Youve been completely obtuse on this since the beginning. Unions aren't forcing people to join them so right to work is wrong, but the company doesn't get the same treatment.

Wat? Unions aren't forcing companies to 'join them' under an absence of this 'Right to Work' governmental interference.

So, if I'm an owner, and let's say that I only wanna hire union workers because for my particular business they are better trained, safer, and more productive. Without this 'Right to Work' governmental interference I'm free to do so, correct. Just like I could require as a condition of employment that employees have their own tools, have access to a car, buy their uniforms from my chosen vendor, or hold an expensive technical certification.

But along comes the nanny-state regulators, like ikestoys, who wanna have the government interfere in private business. They wanna add governmental regulations, governmental enforcement sanctions, and of course hire more governmental bureaucrats and raise more taxes to do what... to make it illegal for a business owner to freely choose his own labor relations policy.

Right missiledog, since you want gov regulation out you'll happily support a law that allows a company to dissociate themselves from unions right?

Ah 2+2, the place where people are cool with unions as long as they have no power, employers can break them, and they have to accept free-riders.

Dude, wtf are you taking about? There isn't any law that forces an owner to sign any union contract. You can't repeal a law that doesn't exist.

But as long as you wanna get rid of odious regulations... how about the regulations that require taxpayers to pay for and directly subsidize the protection of scabs crossing a line, or the evictions of sit-down strikers.

Md try reading a bit harder. It is absolutely illegal to fire someone for being in a union, or even to move because you don't want to deal with the union

This seems like a stretch coming from someone who mocks libertarians for their "taxation is theft" slogan.

And the best part is that unions like the uaw are not working especially hard for their newer employees. The two tier system sucks for a ton of people, yet they had to pay for the union.

Taxation is theft is blatantly ******ed, voluntary free riding is theft is pretty accurate.