The Return of Bowe Bergdahl - Page 14 - Politics and Economics

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The Return of Bowe Bergdahl

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06-08-2014 , 10:41 PM

#326

adios

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LostOstrich

as a UK observer with an admittedly low level of interest in US politics, I'm surprised to see that the "should we deal with terrorists/ the enemy" question is being simplified to "should we have traded for this guy, who may be a deserter and whose father has an al qaeda beard?"

I don't know how aware the US public is of the rest of the world's general consensus that Guantanemo is just a massive war crime and a disgrace to humanity, but it always strikes me as ironic when the US administration/media worries about the treatment of its own soldiers at the hands of the bad guys. Even so, I'm baffled by the right's apparent conviction that this guy ought to have been left to rot in a Taliban cell because he apparently left his post for reasons unknown. I'd like to see an honest debate about the merits and dangers of doing any sort of deals with military opponents, but I doubt such a debate will be allowed to happen.

You are woefully misinformed about Gitmo. Military tribunals were scheduled for several Gitmo detainees including KSM (they all have Jag lawyers). Obama nixed the tribunals and floated the idea of trying KSM in criminal court. That idea was criticized but that doesn't mean Obama gets a pass. Obama just didn't have the stones to try them in criminal court. The reason the detainees have been in Gitmo from the time Obama took office without adjudication of their cases is due to Obama. Obama signed an executive order closing Gitmo almost immediately after taking office which was 5.5 years ago and it is still open. So again the left wing Obama administration is completely responsible for the continued detention of the detainees without a trial of any kind.

06-08-2014 , 10:49 PM

#327

LostOstrich

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don't get me wrong, I hold Obama 100% responsible for Gitmo's continued existence. I don't have a horse in this race. My only real point, I guess, is that Gitmo makes a mockery of any pretensions the US may have of being any sort of moral/legal barometer for the ROW.

Back on topic, my main point is that partisan politics have caused the wider issue of whether hostage deals ought to be entertained to be reduced to a more specific analysis of the value in securing this one individual in exchange for these five "unlawful combatants" or whatever the specific legal term that enables the US to imprison them on foreign soil without trial for an indefinite length of time is.

06-08-2014 , 11:41 PM

#328

seattlelou

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It's a weird case given the unique nature of the GWOT. This article was helpful to me.

Quote:

During the Bush administration, lawyers developing policies related to dealings with the Taliban often referred back to the late 18th century and the Barbary pirates of North Africa. These criminal groups were not governments, although when they captured merchant ships and successfully obtained ransoms, the booty and the vessels were often turned over to rulers in Algeria, Tripoli, Morocco and Tunis.

After achieving independence, the United States assumed responsibilities for protecting its own ships from the pirates, a duty that had previously been handled by the British and, in some circumstances, the French. In 1784, Congress appropriated about $80,000 as a tribute to the Barbary nations, in the hopes that this would protect American ships. But the following years, Algerians captured two American vessels and demanded a $60,000 ransom. Thomas Jefferson, then the ambassador to France, vehemently opposed paying, but the American government launched into negotiations for ransom with the Barbary nations that were engaged in this form of terrorism. Indeed, in 1795 alone, the United States paid in excess of $1 million in cash and assets to free sailors captured by pirates.

When Jefferson took over the presidency, he refused to pay any more, a decision that ultimately led to war with the Barbary states. Eventually, during Jefferson’s term, a treaty ended the conflict—but it included a $60,000 payment to the ruler of Algiers for each American held hostage.

The lesson here? Even the country’s founders wrestled with the conflict of refusing to negotiate with criminals—or those nations that protect the criminals—and standing by American sailors. Some in government fought negotiations as bad policy that encouraged continued criminal acts, others demanded that the country act to save its men and, ultimately, talks took place and some of the Barbary states obtained the cash they demanded.

This is the circumstance in American history that is closest to that presented by the war in Afghanistan, and demonstrates that there simply are no easy answers. Absolutism can conflict with other American values, and how that is addressed presents no simple answers.

Other countries have faced the same conflict and often have adopted the strategy of negotiating. For example, the British denied prisoner of war status to colonists captured during the American Revolution. But still, the two sides negotiated many prisoner exchanges, even for American captives that the British had designated as traitors.

The same has held true for Israel. In 2011, the Jewish nation reached a negotiated agreement with Hamas—a group designated as a terrorist organization—to release 1,027 prisoners, including many terrorists, in exchange for a single Israeli soldier. The deal constituted the largest prisoner exchange ever agreed to by Israel.

The lesson? The Obama administration is far from the first government—be it American or foreign—to have decided to negotiate with individuals it does not recognize as constituting legitimate rulers, or even with groups identified as terrorists. While that doesn’t provide absolute justification for doing so, it does underscore that these decisions have, throughout history, proven to be more complex than the absolutists choose to believe.

http://www.newsweek.com/truth-behind...er-swap-253218

06-09-2014 , 03:46 AM

#329

Pantoja

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

'massive war crime and a disgrace to humanity'

It ain't even top ten this year dude.

That may be true, but it's a terrible defense of indefinite detention with no recourse to legal remedy.

06-09-2014 , 04:28 AM

#330

seattlelou

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Don't worry we have corrected this by the killing more often.

06-09-2014 , 08:27 AM

#331

seattlelou

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Quote:

"I'm not telling you that they don't have some ability at some point to go back and get involved (in fighting). But they also have an ability to get killed doing that. " Kerry said in his first public comments on the controversial prisoner exchange.

06-09-2014 , 09:20 AM

#332

MidyMat

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They can't execute them at gitmo without a trial. Release them back to the battlefield and they can just drone them.

easy peasy japanesey

06-09-2014 , 09:24 AM

#333

Huehuecoyotl

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So this guy was enhancly interrogated after trying to escape? So much for the turned to the other side theory.

06-09-2014 , 11:04 AM

#334

Namath12

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06-09-2014 , 12:14 PM

#335

Riverman

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Am I reading that right, Kerry basically straight up admitted we are going to drone the released prisoners?

06-09-2014 , 12:16 PM

#336

MidyMat

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverman

Am I reading that right, Kerry basically straight up admitted we are going to drone the released prisoners?

sssssshhhhhhhh!!!!! Damn, man can't you keep a secret!?!?!?!?!!?!?!

or do you want the terrorists to win?

06-09-2014 , 12:57 PM

#337

LetsGambool

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Quote:

Originally Posted by adios

Well, no. They are definitely culpable, but they are for sure not completely responsible.

Does your definition of criticized unclude a bipartisan bill in Congress that prevents Gitmo detainees from being transferred to US soil?

Tribunals for all would likely acquit a number of detainees due to a lack of admissible evidence. Would you support doing that and letting the chips fall where they may (might be the correct answer, just pointing out what the idea of tribunals would entail)

06-09-2014 , 01:41 PM

#338

Huehuecoyotl

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Best summation of the Bergdahl case yet

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczyn...-swap?s=mobile

06-09-2014 , 01:52 PM

#339

longmissedblind

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Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,736

Quote:

Originally Posted by adios

Ahhh what it must be like to be completely tone deaf to history. Obama could have just as easily avoided all the mom jeans comments if he had the stones to cut both of his legs off in his first term.

06-09-2014 , 01:53 PM

#340

Huehuecoyotl

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I guess we'll get the real confirmation one way or another his closing years.

06-09-2014 , 02:02 PM

#341

longmissedblind

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl

Best summation of the Bergdahl case yet

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczyn...-swap?s=mobile

like, such as

06-09-2014 , 02:46 PM

#342

seattlelou

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverman

Am I reading that right, Kerry basically straight up admitted we are going to drone the released prisoners?

I more favorable reading is that he is attempting to scare the taliban straight with a comment that may placate those that get easily spun up over end is near crowd. A series if unfortunate accidents to these guys in Qatar seems like the really old school approach. Pre-indefinite detention and compassion missiles.
I miss the old days where judges decided beauty contests with an informal poll of "spit or swallow."

Last edited by seattlelou; 06-09-2014 at 02:54 PM.

06-09-2014 , 04:54 PM

#343

[Phill]

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ikestoys

'massive war crime and a disgrace to humanity'

It ain't even top ten this year dude.

Out of interest, what are you trying to win and out what point are you advancing by defending gitmo as "not as bad as other things"?

06-09-2014 , 05:46 PM

#344

seattlelou

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If you don't attempt at proportionately you might end up equating Germany under Nazism to modern Israel like Deuces. Don't be like Deuces.

06-09-2014 , 06:28 PM

#345

adios

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Quote:

Originally Posted by longmissedblind

Ahhh what it must be like to be completely tone deaf to history. Obama could have just as easily avoided all the mom jeans comments if he had the stones to cut both of his legs off in his first term.

LOL what? How completely inane and ridiculous. Political expediency trumps morality in your view, got it.

06-09-2014 , 08:51 PM

#346

LetsGambool

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There's someone rooting for laundry with their explanation of the situation, but I don't think its longmissedblind.

06-09-2014 , 08:53 PM

#347

ikestoys

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Quote:

Originally Posted by seattlelou

If you don't attempt at proportionately you might end up equating Germany under Nazism to modern Israel like Deuces. Don't be like Deuces.

Ha couldn't have send it better myself.

06-09-2014 , 09:53 PM

#348

grizy

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Be so awesome if declassified documents later show the 5 released prisoners are chipped and leading us directly to other terrorists.

06-09-2014 , 10:17 PM

#349

aislephive

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Quote:

Originally Posted by grizy

Be so awesome if declassified documents later show the 5 released prisoners are chipped and leading us directly to other terrorists.

When they were first released I was thinking this was actually a realistic possibility. Put some kind of GPS chip inside them before releasing them and when they go back with Al Qaeda leaders you can drone them all at once.

Elite strategy imo.