Remember that guy who shot the two robbers in Texas? - Politics and Economics

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Remember that guy who shot the two robbers in Texas?

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07-01-2008 , 10:56 AM

The 13th 4postle

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CNN Article

CNN Video

Full 911 Call - 8:17 Minutes

Well, he got off. Was he justified or not?

I think so, they ain't going to rob that neighborhood again anytime soon.

Last edited by The 13th 4postle; 07-01-2008 at 11:04 AM.

07-01-2008 , 11:17 AM

DVaut1

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Old thread here.

Quote:

Well, he got off. Was he justified or not?

Of course not, imo.

Quote:

I think so, they ain't going to rob that neighborhood again anytime soon.

That doesn't justify killing unarmed people.

07-01-2008 , 11:20 AM

bobman0330

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When this first broke, I looked at the Texas statutes, and I think he was legally justified. It's still on a level with murder to me though.

Black humor from the story:

Quote:

HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- A Texas man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home was cleared in the shootings Monday by a grand jury.

Joe Horn shot and killed two men last November after he saw them crawl out a neighbor's window.

Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

"The message we're trying to send today is the criminal justice system works," Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson said.

Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright, has said his client believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them only when they came into his yard and threatened him.

The two Horn suspected of committing burglary, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction.

The episode touched off protests from civil rights activists who said the shooting was racially motivated and that Horn took the law into his own hands. Horn's supporters defended his actions, saying he was protecting himself and being a good neighbor to a homeowner who was out of town.

"I understand the concerns of some in the community regarding Mr. Horn's conduct," Magidson said. "The use of deadly force is carefully limited in Texas law to certain circumstances ... In this case, however, the grand jury concluded that Mr. Horn's use of deadly force did not rise to a criminal offense."

Lambright did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment from The Associated Press.

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect a neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

It's not clear whether the neighbor whose home was burglarized asked Horn to watch over his house.

They certainly ain't going to rob that neighborhood again though.

07-01-2008 , 11:31 AM

dazraf69

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How would this have played out if he had not killed them? What if it was a shot to the leg?

07-01-2008 , 11:44 AM

The 13th 4postle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dazraf69

How would this have played out if he had not killed them? What if it was a shot to the leg?

He'd get sued.

07-01-2008 , 11:46 AM

General Tsao

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What if they'd been holding guns and instead of killing them he shot them in the hands so they dropped their weapons??

07-01-2008 , 11:48 AM

slickss

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dazraf69

How would this have played out if he had not killed them? What if it was a shot to the leg?

What if he had just followed the dispatcher's instructions? "Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back."

Being result oriented I'd say that there's a good chance nobody would've gotten shot / hurt had Horn followed the instructions. However, if Horn didn't know that they were unarmed then it might have been difficult for him to listen to some guy on a telephone when he's in the middle of it. That said, when you shoot two people in the back with a shotgun you are likely using more than just necessary force.

07-01-2008 , 11:58 AM

ErikTheDread

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If he'd shot them in the face, he'd be pre-qualified as Vice President of the United States.

07-01-2008 , 12:05 PM

dazraf69

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Would crime drop if this was a common occurrence?

Did the robbers already have his stuff?

07-01-2008 , 12:09 PM

#10

DVaut1

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dazraf69

Would crime drop if this was a common occurrence?

Again, does it matter? Does this really justify using excessive force?

07-01-2008 , 12:31 PM

#11

BCPVP

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Taso

What if they'd been holding guns and instead of killing them he shot them in the hands so they dropped their weapons??

Quote:

He'd get sued.

Shooting someone only in the hand (with a shotgun, no less!) is for Hollywood, not real life. If someone is threatening you with a weapon and you are armed as well, shoot for center mass. Leave the shooting guns out of the bad guy's hands for the movies.

07-01-2008 , 12:34 PM

#12

jthegreat

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If he'd followed the dispatcher's instructions, the guys most likely would have gotten away and robbed someone else at a later date. Kudos to this guy for protecting himself and his neighbors.

I'm boggled at the number of people who seem to think that breaking into someone's house isn't *that* bad a thing to do. WTF is wrong with you?

07-01-2008 , 12:34 PM

#13

andyfox

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Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 21,553

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVaut1

Again, does it matter? Does this really justify using excessive force?

Yeah, we can stop any crime if we make the penalties--legal or otherwise--draconian enough. If we felt jaywalking was a problem, we could make the punishment the death penalty and we'd probably eliminate jaywalking. At what cost, though, is the question.

Interesting that the lawyer said his client only used his weapon when the intruders threatened him. Yet he told the 911 operator that he intended to kill them and shot them both in the back.

07-01-2008 , 12:40 PM

#14

Wynton

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Shooting someone in the back, alone, really isn't determinative proof that the action was not in self-defense, a conclusion I've heard a number of medical examiners state. In the heat of the moment, people move and twist their bodies in different positions.

Of course, self-defense is harder to argue if BOTH robbers were shot in the back. Distance between the shooter and the decedents would be another relevant factor to consider, among others.

07-01-2008 , 12:54 PM

#15

haarley

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Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 215

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyfox

At what cost, though, is the question.

#00 buck shot gun shells .94 cents each x two thieves=$1.84 cost effective IMHO

07-01-2008 , 12:54 PM

#16

ErikTheDread

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Quote:

If we felt jaywalking was a problem, we could make the punishment the death penalty and we'd probably eliminate jaywalking.

Picking pockets used to be a capital offense in England yet people had their pockets picked at public hangings of pickpockets.

Say that three times fast.

07-01-2008 , 12:57 PM

#17

bobman0330

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jthegreat

I'm pretty sure the number of people in this thread who think burglary is OK is 0, which is hardly boggle-worthy.

07-01-2008 , 01:17 PM

#18

slickss

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jthegreat

If he'd followed the dispatcher's instructions, the guys most likely would have gotten away and robbed someone else at a later date. Kudos to this guy for protecting himself and his neighbors.

With that reasoning you are essentially arguing for the death penalty for burglary. Kudos to you.

07-01-2008 , 01:28 PM

#19

nineinchal

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What if he shot both guys twice and killed them again?

07-01-2008 , 01:53 PM

#20

General Tsao

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BCPVP

REALLY?

07-01-2008 , 02:05 PM

#21

AngusThermopyle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jthegreat

There was a plains clothes cop who had just arrived and witnessed the shooting. So, I doubt if they would have gotten away.

And breaking into someones house is a bad thing to do. But it is not a capital offense. Drunk drivers kill more people than burglars. Let's start summary roadside executions for idiots who blow over 0.10.

07-01-2008 , 02:11 PM

#22

RollinHand

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Quote:

And breaking into someones house is a bad thing to do. But it is not a capital offense.

Sometimes it is, it depends how bad/good you run as a criminal.
Sometimes you get away and "profit" sometimes you get shot in the back and die.

07-01-2008 , 02:15 PM

#23

TomVeil

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Quote:

Originally Posted by haarley

#00 buck shot gun shells .94 cents each x two thieves=$1.84 cost effective IMHO

The laugh I needed to start my day, thanks

Quote:

Sometimes it is, it depends how bad/good you run as a criminal.
Sometimes you get away and "profit" sometimes you get shot in the back and die.

Exactly.

07-01-2008 , 02:15 PM

#24

Black Peter

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Wynton

Yes, the fact that he shot them BOTH in the back is a concern. However, without access to the rest of the evidence, it's hard to tell if it's self-defense or not. It would be interesting to know if they were running away from him or just instinctively turned when he raised the shotgun.

07-01-2008 , 02:18 PM

#25

The 13th 4postle

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Listening to the call is pretty interesting.

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