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View Poll Results: Sex with a prostitute...
Having sex with a prostitute is unethical, harmful to the women and should be illegal.
7 2.99%
Should be legalized but it would remain unethical, & still often harmful to the women.
57 24.36%
Is not particularly unethical, many other jobs can be just as harmful and it should be legalized.
161 68.80%
Other (please specify)
9 3.85%

03-08-2010 , 12:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by helium tedium
If cocaine weren't more addictive and detrimental than tobacco, then why hasn't government legalized and taxed it in the same way that they have cigarettes?

Regardless, it's completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Because the government sucks at everything but being illogical and hypocritical, ldo.

Quote:
Because something is cheap does not mean that you can't just buy more of it. You can only consume so much of tobacco, and it will only serve to bring you back to an even keel. Cocaine puts you on a HIGH - one that is frequently chased without regard - many times until an overdose or an untimely death.

How long does it usually take tobacco to eventually kill someone? How many cigarette ODs have you even heard of? I'm having a really hard time distinguishing the detrimental effects of tobacco from those of fast food.

Yeah, big difference, tobacco and cocaine, but still completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not a state-sponsored (but more importantly state-PROTECTED) industry of sex trade would incentivise women to avoid the daily grind of otherwise socially acceptable professions.
Huh? Yes when something is cheap people generally don't have to whore, rob, steal for it. When you criminalize something you artificially increase the cost of obtaining it via a black market, when the substance is addictive, it causes addicts to rob, steal, or whore to obtain it, unless they happen to wealthy like celebrities or wall street types, who then can often be functioning addicts for years even decades before ultimately seeking treatment. If it were cheap like alcohol and cigarettes, it doesn't mean it isn't harmful, it just means that the need to whore oneself to obtain it is diminished greatly. Alcohol can be very addictive and can also ruin peoples lives in short order, as your cocaine ramblings allude to, are women generally driven to whoring themselves out to pay for their alcohol addictions?
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03-08-2010 , 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedorfan


Huh? Yes when something is cheap people generally don't have to whore, rob, steal for it. When you criminalize something you artificially increase the cost of obtaining it via a black market, when the substance is addictive, it causes addicts to rob, steal, or whore to obtain it, unless they happen to wealthy like celebrities or wall street types, who then can often be functioning addicts for years even decades before ultimately seeking treatment. If it were cheap like alcohol and cigarettes, it doesn't mean it isn't harmful, it just means that the need to whore oneself to obtain it is diminished greatly. Alcohol can be very addictive and can also ruin peoples lives in short order, as your cocaine ramblings allude to, are women generally driven to whoring themselves out to pay for their alcohol addictions?
You seem to have missed my point entirely. Despite the cost ("artificially inflated" or not), a tobacco habit can only cost so much, typically 1-2 packs a day (~$5-10), whereas cocaine can cost whatever the hell you're willing to pay for it in a given night until you keel over and choke on your own vomit.

Regardless, this particular derail STILL has absolutely nothing to do with the incentivisation of prostitution via state-sponsorship.

Sigh.
03-08-2010 , 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by helium tedium
You seem to have missed my point entirely. Despite the cost ("artificially inflated" or not), a tobacco habit can only cost so much, typically 1-2 packs a day (~$5-10), whereas cocaine can cost whatever the hell you're willing to pay for it in a given night until you keel over and choke on your own vomit.
hmm...it's like you don't even read my posts. You not even disagreeing with my counterarguments, you just repeating the same assertion.

I understand that people don't OD on cigs, they do on alcohol though, and what does this have to do with whoring yourself out to pay for the addiction via exorbitant black market prices? If cocaine was cheap and legal, the difference would be that a women could OD and keel over and choke on her own vomit without having to whore herself to pay for the coke in the first place.
03-08-2010 , 12:44 AM
I voted option 2 but am conflicted. For me it is definitely unethical and I wouldn't participate if it was legal, but there is no denying prostitutes provide a service to society. There is a class of male (very ugly, severely crippled, extremely socially awkward) that would have a very hard time getting laid without hookers. Thank goodness they are there as a pressure release valve, or we might see a lot more random violence.
03-08-2010 , 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
Yeah, but it refutes the "they just like sex" crap which was spewed all over the other thread.
Links to "they just like sex" posts? I don't recall anyone saying that (unless you used mod-ability to turbo delete them?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
Sweeeeet, an ACist voted 2. I guess not all voluntary transactions are mutually beneficial afterall.
All voluntary transactions are viewed as beneficial by the exchangers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
Would you consider it unethical to pay for sex with someone who could very well be there through coercion without you knowing it? Would you find it moral to engage in an act in which there is a decent chance you unwittingly are engaging in rape?
People are not committing rape. That's just an empty emotional plea. Unless you think all prostitution is rape in a "she doesn't WANT to have sex with you, she's just doing it cuz you pay her" way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by helium tedium
You seem to have missed my point entirely. Despite the cost ("artificially inflated" or not), a tobacco habit can only cost so much, typically 1-2 packs a day (~$5-10), whereas cocaine can cost whatever the hell you're willing to pay for it in a given night until you keel over and choke on your own vomit.

Regardless, this particular derail STILL has absolutely nothing to do with the incentivisation of prostitution via state-sponsorship.

Sigh.
As long as you're admitting that people wouldn't whore themselves out for cocaine if it was cheap. You seem to be arguing whether "cocaine should be legal or not" and not "would people whore themselves out for coke if it was legal".
03-08-2010 , 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx
I voted option 2 but am conflicted. For me it is definitely unethical and I wouldn't participate if it was legal, but there is no denying prostitutes provide a service to society. There is a class of male (very ugly, severely crippled, extremely socially awkward) that would have a very hard time getting laid without hookers. Thank goodness they are there as a pressure release valve, or we might see a lot more random violence.
Johns are not limited to guys that cant get laid. See Hugh Grant and many politicians.. Just a thought, it is more ethical to lie to a regular girl, with the sole pupose being to get in her pants or pay someone and go separate ways when done
03-08-2010 , 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx
I voted option 2 but am conflicted. For me it is definitely unethical and I wouldn't participate if it was legal, but there is no denying prostitutes provide a service to society. There is a class of male (very ugly, severely crippled, extremely socially awkward) that would have a very hard time getting laid without hookers. Thank goodness they are there as a pressure release valve, or we might see a lot more random violence.

03-08-2010 , 01:00 AM
Or how about Hugh Grant seeing that ugly hooker when he had Elizabeth Hurley waiting at home.
03-08-2010 , 01:06 AM
If people were doing free dentistry on each other all over the place would we condemn people who charged for it?

If there was a prostitute who always gave the money back to the John after he paid would that change the moral nature of the transaction?
03-08-2010 , 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTeeMe
Or how about Hugh Grant seeing that ugly hooker when he had Elizabeth Hurley waiting at home.
I don't remember Hugh Grant. Was he:

A) Very ugly

B) Crippled

C) Socially awkward

D) All of the above?
03-08-2010 , 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ineedaride2
I don't remember Hugh Grant. Was he:

A) Very ugly

B) Crippled

C) Socially awkward

D) All of the above?
Somewhat.
03-08-2010 , 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTeeMe
Somewhat.
wth? Was he masturbating during that picture?

E) Sexual deviant.
03-08-2010 , 02:19 AM
I wonder what % of prostitution is forced by traffickers, pimps, or done to obtain drugs etc. If there are any estimates at all. Prostitution by itself, just a woman (or man) who is a totally willing participant I don't have any real problem with it. I am under the impression that most prostitutes are not these people though.
03-08-2010 , 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
If people can show how prostitution can operate without this sex slavery being involved, then we can discuss prostitution further outside of that. As it is, I'd suggest this is the first stumbling block people need to get over before they can talk about visiting prostitutes (in the real world, not in abstract theoretical discussion) as possibly moral.
Well, the whole prohibition thing isn't working too well to stop sex slavery. If anything, it encourages sex slavery: the criminal nature of prostitution means that mostly those on the margins of society(drug addicts, runaways, illegal immigrants, victims of kidnapping) "accept" the risks involved.
03-08-2010 , 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAdvantage
Johns are not limited to guys that cant get laid. See Hugh Grant and many politicians.. Just a thought, it is more ethical to lie to a regular girl, with the sole pupose being to get in her pants or pay someone and go separate ways when done
I didn't mean to imply that all John's can't otherwise get laid...that's obviously not true. I was simply pointing out that prostitutes provide an important "service" to society that is often overlooked.
03-08-2010 , 03:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vixticator
I wonder what % of prostitution is forced by traffickers, pimps, or done to obtain drugs etc. If there are any estimates at all. Prostitution by itself, just a woman (or man) who is a totally willing participant I don't have any real problem with it. I am under the impression that most prostitutes are not these people though.
well, how many places have laws that allow people to set up a respectable prostitution business? Given that this is very rare i would wager that most prostitution operates in the ugly black markets of drug and sex peddlers and their manifestations of organized crime. That would be my guess.

Kind of like how if you were to outlaw and criminalize respectable casinos and card rooms from doing business, and then ponder how many of the ones that fill in the demand and operate in the black market are not run by organized crime, not full of shady characters, and don't have cheating, robbery and mugging as a real concern?

Last edited by Fedorfan; 03-08-2010 at 03:56 AM.
03-08-2010 , 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedorfan
well, how many places have laws that allow people to set up a respectable prostitution business? Given that this is very rare i would wager that most prostitution operates in the ugly black markets of drug and sex peddlers and their manifestations of organized crime. That would be my guess.
Even where it is legal there is widespread abuse.
03-08-2010 , 06:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTeeMe
Links to "they just like sex" posts? I don't recall anyone saying that (unless you used mod-ability to turbo delete them?)
Boro's posts for example in the LC thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTeeMe
All voluntary transactions are viewed as beneficial by the exchangers.
But plenty of them are pretty clearly not mutually beneficial to both exchangers to any rational observer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTeeMe
People are not committing rape. That's just an empty emotional plea. Unless you think all prostitution is rape in a "she doesn't WANT to have sex with you, she's just doing it cuz you pay her" way.
Rape - "the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. "

If the prostitutes are there due to human trafficking and sex slavery it is rape. The John might not know it, but it's rape. If she doesn't have sex with him - she gets the **** kicked out of her by her pimp or whoever in many cases.

Wouldn't it be immoral to visit a prostitute if there is even a small chance you would actually be raping her.

Last edited by Not_In_My_Name; 03-08-2010 at 06:58 AM.
03-08-2010 , 07:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALawPoker
I have a hard time even entertaining the idea that something voluntary on both ends could be "unethical." Whether it's destructive/unhealthy is a different question.
Really? Are the following unethical?

- Selling heroin to vulnerable people?
- Encouraging someone to buy heroin who has been trying for months to get off the stuff.
- Running out on your pregnant wife.
- Selling a gun to a clearly suicidal man.
- Incest with your 18 year old daughter?

All of these could not even be entertained as "unethical"?

And of course, like I've been saying, prostitution is often NOT voluntary.
03-08-2010 , 07:04 AM
I searched all of Boro's posts in the LC thread (I'm bored as hell working this graveyard) and the only thing that anyone could ever read as "they just like sex" is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borodog
You have a bizarre worldview. Human beings like sex. Sex need not be disgusting, degrading, harmful, exploitative, or abusive. Doing it for money does not make it any of these things, any more than me doing computational fluid dynamics or someone building a table and chairs for money makes these occupations disgusting, degrading, harmful, exploitative or abusive. You might want to seek professional help for the issues you have with sex.
"Human beings like sex" means there is a demand for a prostitute's services.
03-08-2010 , 07:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
And of course, like I've been saying, prostitution is often NOT voluntary.
And like you should have realized far earlier, that is a seperate issue.
03-08-2010 , 07:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTeeMe
And like you should have realized far earlier, that is a seperate issue.
No it's not, because you have no ****ing clue if the girl you are banging is a sex slave or not. If we're talking about prostitution in the real world, the actual issues involved with visiting a prostitute, how are you going to determine that she is there voluntarily and not through threat of violence? Asking her pimp? Asking her? Could you be certain?

It seems impossible to separate the two unless you have some way of determining who the voluntary whore are and who the involuntary slaves are.
03-08-2010 , 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayTeeMe
I searched all of Boro's posts in the LC thread (I'm bored as hell working this graveyard) and the only thing that anyone could ever read as "they just like sex" is:

"Human beings like sex" means there is a demand for a prostitute's services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borodog
There is nothing inherently disgusting, degrading, abusive, etc. about sex. There is nothing inherently any of the above about having sex with strangers. There are plenty of women who really enjoy sex and are good at it. Trust me. There are also plenty of women who enjoy having sex with different guys every day. They are known variously as "sorority girls", "girls you pick up in bars", etc. There is nothing about doing something for money that inherently makes it disgusting, degrading, abusive, etc. If you were thinking logically, you could see this. But you aren't. So either you have a problem with sex, with money, with voluntary exchange, or some combination thereof. I don't know where your problems lies, but it isn't in the land of logic. I personally don't have a problem with any of these things. All are healthy, normal social phenomena, when they are not perverted by coercion. And moralistic judgmentalism.

...

And as for my hypothetical daughter, if she were to come to me some day, in a sane world where violent douchebags who feel they have the right to imprison people for consenting acts of capitalism don't rule society, and say, "You know Dad, I really like dick, and I'm really, really good at working dicks, and I think I'd like to be a call girl," and she felt that was her place in the division of labor and the social order, that would be fine by me. And I certainly wouldn't want some sex-hating, purtanical, moralizing prig trying to make her feel bad about herself.
This view of prostitutes is off in cloud-cuckoo land. I've looked at a couple other forums' debates on prostitution two and this attitude always seems to come out - many prostitutes just like sex and are healthy, well adjusted people who like their job, are good at it, and make good money at it. Like the plant Stossel was trying to make us believe is representative of prostitution, hilariously. Most prostitutes are not like that now, and I doubt most prostitutes are going to be like that if we ever have a free-market society.
03-08-2010 , 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
This view of prostitutes is off in cloud-cuckoo land. I've looked at a couple other forums' debates on prostitution two and this attitude always seems to come out - many prostitutes just like sex and are healthy, well adjusted people who like their job, are good at it, and make good money at it. Like the plant Stossel was trying to make us believe is representative of prostitution, hilariously. Most prostitutes are not like that now, and I doubt most prostitutes are going to be like that if we ever have a free-market society.
May I ask what your experience with prostitution is?
03-08-2010 , 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montius
May I ask what your experience with prostitution is?
Volunteered at a social services centre for a couple of years. I only worked a day or an evening or two a week, but we dealt with plenty of prostitutes looking for help, they organize data gathering on prostitution in the area and so on. I don't exactly claim to be an expert, but I know the "hooker with a heart of gold" thing is almost entirely a myth, and when it comes from some men, a very transparent rationalization of behaviour they know on some level is pretty wrong.

There are some pretty decent studies out there on the statistics of prostitution. I've linked some of them in here, so it's not too difficult to be informed on the matter.

Last edited by Not_In_My_Name; 03-08-2010 at 07:32 AM.
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