Another source on what prostitution often entails, violence and slavery, this one from the EU.

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/WOM1309.doc.htm

"Another country representative added that there was no such thing as voluntary prostitution. About 90 per cent of prostitutes who had participated in a recent study had said that they wanted to change their lives. In many cases, the subject of prostitution was not a subject of women’s choice, but of violence and trafficking in people."

Using that definition of 'voluntary' me doing any work would be considered involuntary, as I'd only be doing it to change my life.

this, but it can be when things like kids, pimps, and immigration get involved.

Yeah, but it refutes the "they just like sex" crap which was spewed all over the other thread. I can keep churning out stats on the number of women pressed into prostitution by violence or threat of violence though if you'd like.

Spain - http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt...eur/119106.htm

These are all modern, industrialized, relatively rich societies I'm looking at, not third world ****holes. Many of them have legalized prostitution. Do we have any reason to believe a free market society would be able to eliminate or greatly reduce this pervasive sex slavery? If it wouldn't disappear (or come close to disappearing) I don't see how you can disagree that seeking out sex from a worker who is possibly there due to violence or threat of violence is not completely unethical and wrong in any sort of realistic scenario.

There are two separate issues here. Obviously human trafficking and forced prostitution are unethical crimes and should be. But I don't think you can say that since some prostitution is forced, all prostitution is therefore unethical or should be illegal.

With that being said, I think that prostitution is degrading both to the prostitute and to the man who hires her, and it would be better (in some utopian utilitarian sense) if prostitution did not exist.

Didn't read the whole thing, but the above quote sounds like something out of a yoghurt ad. If you ask people whether they want to change their lives, 90% of all people will probably say yes. I want to change my life. I haven't, cos I'm lazy and lack the willpower. I don't blame my boss or my customers for my laziness. If my boss beats me up, I'll quit and call the police.

I sympathize for women who are actually kidnapped from their country and have no means (no passport, no common language with the authorities) to get out of the situation without risking their lives, but I really don't believe in, say, an USA citizen being unable to get out of the business if they really want. If you have no money (which doesn't sound likely, whoring is a very lucrative business) there are always relatives, safehouses, organizations, cops, whatever. Pimps aren't criminal masterminds you see in the movies, once you take the bus they have about a zero chance of ever finding you.

I'm not getting what you are wanting your point to be NIMN. I don't think anyone here is denying that beating employees or forcing them into slavery is unethical. It is unethical in prostitution, house cleaning, shoe makeing, etc.

edit: slow pony

Without barriers to legal entry traffickers would have a tougher time of it, although I'm sure it would still happen.

Still its a stupid question. What if there is a case where a cashier at Walmart was found to be an illegal immigrant who was forced to work at Walmart by a guy who stole most of her wages. Would buying things at Walmart suddenly be unethical because you might be supporting slave labor?

Depends if you, as a John, are actually able to distinguish what is voluntary and what is not. I imagine it is almost impossible to do so. So there is a fair chance that the prostitute you are banging is a sex slave and you'd have no idea about it. This makes going to visit a prostitute knowing she may be a sex slave thoroughly abhorrent to me.

If people can show how prostitution can operate without this sex slavery being involved, then we can discuss prostitution further outside of that. As it is, I'd suggest this is the first stumbling block people need to get over before they can talk about visiting prostitutes (in the real world, not in abstract theoretical discussion) as possibly moral.

Yeah, I'm not trying to say it's really possible to eliminate it entirely, just it would be a good goal to strive towards.

If Walmart knew about it, hell yes it would be unethical to shop there imo, until they made positive efforts to stop employing slaves...

A better analogy would be if Walmart itself was consciously kidnapping people and forcing them to work in their store, would it be unethical to shop there? Clearly, yes.

We also kinda established (imo) in the other thread, that having a possible slave bagging your groceries on threat of force, is rather different, and far less damaging than essentially raping someone. Both should be roundly condemned as morally abhorrant, but I think the sex slave case is typically much worse.

I vote 4, but I'm feeling particularly lazy tonight and didn't want to explain, so 3.

So you never buy anything from Hong Kong or Thailand or Vietnam where people MIGHT have been working in bad conditions? You never eat meat because SOME animals are treated unethically and you may be eating one of those?

Which is why I'd expect most people to agree that going to a prostitute who worked for a Pimp who was known for kidnapping women and forcing them into it would be unethical. Not really quite the same as going to any prostitute, though.

Sweeeeet, an ACist voted 2. I guess not all voluntary transactions are mutually beneficial afterall.

lol wat

I don't see what prohibition has to do with that. Please elaborate.

Edit: Taso - if you can show me an product which is as likely as prostitution to involve slave labour, I'll agree to stop buying that product.

ugh, don't lets get started on animal rights at this time of night

When there is a significant chance that is the case, and you have very little way of knowing whether it is forced or not, yes it is unethical. Unless you have a pretty ****ing good way of knowing that pimp is not employing sex slaves, frequenting his brothel is terrible imo.

If cocaine wasn't illegal it would be the same price as aspirin.

Not that I necessarily agree, but so what?

The price of something does not affect it's addictive properties.

Are you implying that since cocaine would be relatively cheap that potential prostitutes would opt to work in a factory 60 hours a week rather than "degrade" themselves?

el oh el

I don't get his point or conclusion either. You haven't proven that it is inherently unethical or immoral, even if it is often so.

And the problem NIMN, is that most people with your view who rightfully point out all the problems surrounding prostitution, 99.9999% of them then turn around and offer more draconian state criminalization and prohibition as the solution, Political demagogues come out with there 'we must do whatever it takes to eliminate this scourge!!" when it will only make all the problems you are pointing to worse. No we can't have legal prostitution houses like the bunny ranch in nevada where the girls are highly paid, work their own hours, in a fairly secure environment, and are perfectly free to turn down any john they dislike, instead john seeking heathens must turn to the underground cracked out whores and pimps.

I could rattle off lists of problems associated with alcohol and alcoholism; how a big percentage of all violent felonies are committed by people under the influence/intoxication of alcohol, how common alcohol is in cases of wife abuse, and child abuse and molestation and rape. How many people abuse it and ruin their lives, drunk driving ect,ect,ect... It's evil, it's evil, it's evil. But what is the point? is the solution then prohibition, oh you are against prohibition are you? did i tell you how many children are molested and raped by males under the influence of alcohol, if you buy alcohol on the black market you are supporting child rape and molestation? Let's bring back the al capones of the alcohol black markets.

No, so then what? we need to enlighten people? fabulous, I'm sure if only we can guilt (err i mean enlighten) those heathens frequenting the black market cracked out whores, they would change their ways. Specially in a society that is increasingly treating women like sex objects via acceptance of pornography, modeling, marketing, celebrity and so on; thanks in part to the women lib movement i might add.

Cigarettes are very addictive to many people, do you find girls whoring themselves for cigarettes to feed their addiction? No because they are relatively cheap because they aren't obtained via a criminalized black market, and can be obtained in quantity via normal no whoring salary, part time job ect. If cocaine were legal it's addiction would be in the same cost range as a cigarette addiction.

Cocaine wouldn't be "relatively" cheap. It would be dirt cheap, cheaper than alcohol. I'm saying that if drugs were legal there wouldn't be any financial pressure from the habit to pressure an addict into prostitution.

Wouldn't matter. If cocaine was cheap, then some other really expensive thing would pressure women into prostitution. Probably handbags.

Does someone want to argue whether cocaine or shopping is more addictive? I WELCOME YOUR REFUTATION.

If cocaine weren't more addictive and detrimental than tobacco, then why hasn't government legalized and taxed it in the same way that they have cigarettes?

Regardless, it's completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Because something is cheap does not mean that you can't just buy more of it. You can only consume so much of tobacco, and it will only serve to bring you back to an even keel. Cocaine puts you on a HIGH - one that is frequently chased without regard - many times until an overdose or an untimely death.

How long does it usually take tobacco to eventually kill someone? How many cigarette ODs have you even heard of? I'm having a really hard time distinguishing the detrimental effects of tobacco from those of fast food.

Yeah, big difference, tobacco and cocaine, but still completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not a state-sponsored (but more importantly state-PROTECTED) industry of sex trade would incentivise women to avoid the daily grind of otherwise socially acceptable professions.

but the sugar daddy scenario is a much healthier form of prostitution...

same with the casual sex / casual dating scenario. Show me the guys who are regularly splitting the check on a first date and having casual sex after.

I have a hard time even entertaining the idea that something voluntary on both ends could be "unethical." Whether it's destructive/unhealthy is a different question.

So how likely is prostitution exactly to involve slave labor? It varies greatly. In Amsterdam in the illegal areas it will be a lot more likely than in a premium night club. Also at what ratio of forced/voluntary girls does it become unethical to hire a prostitute?