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The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns. The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: No smocking guns.

09-07-2017 , 08:15 AM
How does the fact that Trump wouldn't be able to sit and focus long enough to complete one page, let alone the entire test, factor into your analysis of Trump's intelligence?
09-07-2017 , 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Money2Burn
How does the fact that Trump wouldn't be able to sit and focus long enough to complete one page, let alone the entire test, factor into your analysis of Trump's intelligence?
In other words, what score is a person expected to get if they Christmas-tree the whole test?
09-07-2017 , 08:56 AM
Quote:
The scope of Trump’s commitment to whiteness is matched only by the depth of popular disbelief in the power of whiteness. We are now being told that support for Trump’s “Muslim ban,” his scapegoating of immigrants, his defenses of police brutality are somehow the natural outgrowth of the cultural and economic gap between Lena Dunham’s America and Jeff Foxworthy’s. The collective verdict holds that the Democratic Party lost its way when it abandoned everyday economic issues like job creation for the softer fare of social justice. The indictment continues: To their neoliberal economics, Democrats and liberals have married a condescending elitist affect that sneers at blue-collar culture and mocks the white man as history’s greatest monster and prime-time television’s biggest doofus. In this rendition, Donald Trump is not the product of white supremacy so much as the product of a backlash against contempt for white working-class people.


“We so obviously despise them, we so obviously condescend to them,” the conservative social scientist Charles Murray, who co-wrote The Bell Curve, recently told The New Yorker, speaking of the white working class. “The only slur you can use at a dinner party and get away with is to call somebody a redneck—that won’t give you any problems in Manhattan.”

“The utter contempt with which privileged Eastern liberals such as myself discuss red-state, gun-country, working-class America as ridiculous and morons and rubes,” charged the celebrity chef Anthony Bourdain, “is largely responsible for the upswell of rage and contempt and desire to pull down the temple that we’re seeing now.”

That black people, who have lived for centuries under such derision and condescension, have not yet been driven into the arms of Trump does not trouble these theoreticians. After all, in this analysis, Trump’s racism and the racism of his supporters are incidental to his rise. Indeed, the alleged glee with which liberals call out Trump’s bigotry is assigned even more power than the bigotry itself. Ostensibly assaulted by campus protests, battered by arguments about intersectionality, and oppressed by new bathroom rights, a blameless white working class did the only thing any reasonable polity might: elect an orcish reality-television star who insists on taking his intelligence briefings in picture-book form
Coats on white innocence

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537909/
09-07-2017 , 09:11 AM
Watching kids troll right wing idiots is pretty great.
09-07-2017 , 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman
Watching kids troll right wing idiots is pretty great.
Can you imagine the Lestat's of the world emerging from under their bridge to tut tut the world's 9 year old girls for making InfoWars racist idiots even ANGRIER? When will Democrats get their young children under control, for the sake of white male sensitives? Do you want Trump REELECTED?! I miss the Democratic Party that, when met with an InfoWars reporter, just politely answers their questions and treats them with the utmost respect due to a white male. Clearly white guys have no party now that the nation's prepubescents have been unleashed into the culture wars, and must become reactionary right wing Trump voters, as was fated once Democrats decided to have spawn that know swear words.
09-07-2017 , 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
To flesh out what I've said earlier ITT about Trump, I sympathise somewhat with the people who aren't sure how stupid he is, because it's possible to explain a lot of his behaviour as disinterest in intellectual endeavors. Along with Trump's total lack of interest in what is really true - leading to his status as one of the great bull****ters of our time - he does not care at all how things work on a detailed level and has zero interest in anything intellectual. This is a hard thing for intellectual people like those ITT to grasp. It also complicates efforts to assess how bright he is. After all, if I walk onto a baseball field, swing the bat half heartedly at a few pitches, get nowhere close to hitting and then walk off, one conclusion is that I have no aptitude for baseball. Another conclusion might be that I think baseball is a stupid game and don't care enough to try at it. So it's possible that Trump only appears so dumb because he thinks intellectual effort is worthless. This is actually what I thought the deal was during a few months of the campaign.

While this is possible, I now think it's much more likely Trump is genuinely stupid. One problem with this account of Trump as simply a hater of the intellectual sphere is that it ignores the question of etiology. Why would Trump be like that? After all, he went to business school, he moves in intellectual circles. It makes a lot of sense that Trump the narcissist would be disdainful of the intellect BECAUSE he sucks at using it.
I think the debate is a little uninteresting so I don't want to wade into it too deeply, since I think we have plenty to judge Trump on regardless of our views of his natural intelligence.

But isn't this the intersection between fascism and intellectual pursuits? Part of the essence of fascism isn't that all fascists are half-wits and all anti-fascists enjoy rumination and deep thinking. What the fascist does is cordon off a very small niche for intellectual pursuits -- it has to be practical, used for self-advantage, it has to be active. All other forms of intellectual behaviors are decadent and impractical. Consider how much he loves talking about himself and all the brilliant deals he makes, and how he spots all the best underlings to do all his work for him, he doesn't need to know. He strolls in the room, makes a few decisions, delegates to nerds, and goes back to golf and being adored by the crowds and his model wife or whatever he wants you to think.

Like all things with Trump -- and I would argue we saw the same thing with George W. Bush -- why not consider it performance art? I made a bunch of posts over my 13 years here (sigh) that George W. Bush was, just like Trump, FAR more coherent and talked way less like a poor man's John Wayne earlier in his life. Even earlier in his political career. Even as governor. Then he gets with Karen Hughes and Karl Rove toting around lessons learned from 1992 that his dad lost for being a nerd, and by 2000, he sounds like a slow talkin cowboy. I argued it was performative even if only subconscious -- anti-intellectualism as art.

Back to Trump: This isn't 4d chess stuff. Just his natural inclination and tendencies. People with natural fascist impulses are REALLY good at this sort of thing. I think the "why would Trump continuously walk onto a baseball field and swing half heartedly at a few pitches" isn't that because he's truly a moron. Although sure, he might be really dumb (as I said, I find this a tedious debate). It isn't that he's lazy. Or that he doesn't care about baseball. It's that inside the fascist mind is the idea that power is in not knowing but deciding, there is power in walking into a room full of nerds and beating them without studying, there's power in disabusing the thoughtful person with your gut instincts. I think it's a very fine line between "doesn't care." That kind of art and style takes time to perfect. I think Trump has honestly tried to master it. Not because he's dumb, or lazy, or doesn't care, but because he's got that authoritarian impulse in him that he's wielding a form of power by embracing that schtick.

It's like those jeans with the pre-cut holes that look worn and dirty when you buy them in the store. That's Trump's brain and I think part of him wants to be seen like that a hipster with dirty jeans he just bought. It's a stylistic choice he does for effect.

Last edited by DVaut1; 09-07-2017 at 09:50 AM.
09-07-2017 , 09:53 AM
There is something pure and honest in the unmitigated contempt of a young girl.
09-07-2017 , 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
To flesh out what I've said earlier ITT about Trump, I sympathise somewhat with the people who aren't sure how stupid he is, because it's possible to explain a lot of his behaviour as disinterest in intellectual endeavors. Along with Trump's total lack of interest in what is really true - leading to his status as one of the great bull****ters of our time - he does not care at all how things work on a detailed level and has zero interest in anything intellectual. This is a hard thing for intellectual people like those ITT to grasp. It also complicates efforts to assess how bright he is. After all, if I walk onto a baseball field, swing the bat half heartedly at a few pitches, get nowhere close to hitting and then walk off, one conclusion is that I have no aptitude for baseball. Another conclusion might be that I think baseball is a stupid game and don't care enough to try at it. So it's possible that Trump only appears so dumb because he thinks intellectual effort is worthless. This is actually what I thought the deal was during a few months of the campaign.

While this is possible, I now think it's much more likely Trump is genuinely stupid. One problem with this account of Trump as simply a hater of the intellectual sphere is that it ignores the question of etiology. Why would Trump be like that? After all, he went to business school, he moves in intellectual circles. It makes a lot of sense that Trump the narcissist would be disdainful of the intellect BECAUSE he sucks at using it.
Business/frat boy school is anti-intellectual.
09-07-2017 , 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV
To flesh out what I've said earlier ITT about Trump, I sympathise somewhat with the people who aren't sure how stupid he is, because it's possible to explain a lot of his behaviour as disinterest in intellectual endeavors. Along with Trump's total lack of interest in what is really true - leading to his status as one of the great bull****ters of our time - he does not care at all how things work on a detailed level and has zero interest in anything intellectual. This is a hard thing for intellectual people like those ITT to grasp. It also complicates efforts to assess how bright he is. After all, if I walk onto a baseball field, swing the bat half heartedly at a few pitches, get nowhere close to hitting and then walk off, one conclusion is that I have no aptitude for baseball. Another conclusion might be that I think baseball is a stupid game and don't care enough to try at it. So it's possible that Trump only appears so dumb because he thinks intellectual effort is worthless. This is actually what I thought the deal was during a few months of the campaign.

While this is possible, I now think it's much more likely Trump is genuinely stupid. One problem with this account of Trump as simply a hater of the intellectual sphere is that it ignores the question of etiology. Why would Trump be like that? After all, he went to business school, he moves in intellectual circles. It makes a lot of sense that Trump the narcissist would be disdainful of the intellect BECAUSE he sucks at using it.
Sure. But you are just describing "being dumb". We don't have to all be DS. Calling someone dumb doesn't have to mean some unverifiable claim about how they perform on college standardized tests. Being the president and being too ****ing intellectually lazy to attempt to comprehend details of anything you talk about is perfectly fine to call "being dumb".
09-07-2017 , 10:18 AM
“It’s fine,” McConnell said of his relationship with Trump. “Everything’s fine.”

I guess every cloud does have a silver lining...
09-07-2017 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by +rep_lol
i mean clearly what he's saying is that chicago officials will make no extra effort to assist ICE/the federal govt in rounding up and deporting dreamers, thus they should continue to attend work/school without fear of the local police coming to get them. to the jsb's of the world who just cant help themselves from attempting to find a false moral equivalency between dems/repubs at any and every opportunity, that somehow equates to him "violating federal law"

has to be tough in many ways, going through life being so delusional and self assured
Why does some guy who doesn't even live in America venerate federal law anyways? There were a lot of people who nobly and heroically violated or resisted federal law to thwart the Fugitive Slave Act in the antebellum period. That law was evil. A law that deports long-term residents of the U.S. who came here as children is evil. People who violate that law are heroes and should be proud.
09-07-2017 , 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McSwizzle
“It’s fine,” McConnell said of his relationship with Trump. “Everything’s fine.”

I guess every cloud does have a silver lining...
09-07-2017 , 10:29 AM

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...88459301908480
09-07-2017 , 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul McSwizzle
“It’s fine,” McConnell said of his relationship with Trump. “Everything’s fine.”

I guess every cloud does have a silver lining...
Narrator : It wasn't fine.
09-07-2017 , 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyebooger

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...88459301908480
In before ICE removes first person with DACA papers.
09-07-2017 , 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330
Why does some guy who doesn't even live in America venerate federal law anyways? There were a lot of people who nobly and heroically violated or resisted federal law to thwart the Fugitive Slave Act in the antebellum period. That law was evil. A law that deports long-term residents of the U.S. who came here as children is evil. People who violate that law are heroes and should be proud.
Makes you think. It's almost like their stated veneration of the law is not principled and in fact is being used to mask a perhaps darker, less savory motive for cheering on the deportation of brown skinned children.
09-07-2017 , 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clovis8
In before ICE removes first person with DACA papers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.8457f9edbb73

they already tried once
09-07-2017 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScreaminAsian
Time-traveling Trump strikes again

09-07-2017 , 10:52 AM
Just caught up on last 1.5 days. AIDS
09-07-2017 , 11:00 AM
The First White President

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/537909/
09-07-2017 , 11:03 AM
Cuserounder, Chris V, and Dvaut1 all make good points about Trump. But unless senility has hit him pretty hard they don't add up to him being in the bottom 50% of Americans. At least not in things like IQ tests or chess puzzles. However the largest part of their underestimation is not fully getting what it means to be in the bottom 50%. I once was involved with a bet that showed that casino workers in about 1990 were 25% to know each of the following:

Who is the vice president?

Who is the leader of Cuba?

Who was president during the Civil War?

What is 9x6?

Who was the most recent president to be assassinated?

What state is Philadelphia in?

I swear. And I think these people were only barely below average.

Put another way, I don't think you guys realize that 95% of the people posting here are in the top 5% of Americans at the very least.

And I think Trump is, by our definition, both not smart and lazy. Some of you may remember that I persuaded Stupak to spend tens of thousands on ads challenging him to a million dollar heads up match at Trump The Game EVEN THOUGH TRUMP COULD HAVE INSTANTLY GOTTEN OUT OF THE TRAP IF HE KNEW HIS OWN GAME REQUIRED THREE PLAYERS. We took that small risk that he knew and, as expected, he didn't.

But remember that this all started when I wrote that his "we love our dreamers" proved his ultimate goal was for them to not be deported. And people tried to say that the statement meant nothing either because he was uttering a platitude without realizing the implications or, worse yet, didn't realize that "dreamers" were the same people as those affected by DACA. I said, cmon he is not that dumb, an an unsenile Trump clearly is not.
09-07-2017 , 11:06 AM
That Coates article is so good I can almost forgive him for taking a 2 year sabbatical from writing.
09-07-2017 , 11:08 AM
Quote:
Ostensibly assaulted by campus protests, battered by arguments about intersectionality, and oppressed by new bathroom rights, a blameless white working class did the only thing any reasonable polity might: elect an orcish reality-television star who insists on taking his intelligence briefings in picture-book form.
What is Coates 2+2 username?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
That Coates article is so good I can almost forgive him for taking a 2 year sabbatical from writing.
Also, this.
09-07-2017 , 11:13 AM
Yeah read the Coates article on the way to work this morning and agree with everyone that it was awesome.

I thought he was only off for like 9 months or something? Wasn't the Obama interview/retrospective article he wrote end of last year?
09-07-2017 , 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Sklansky
Cuserounder, Chris V, and Dvaut1 all make good points about Trump. But unless senility has hit him pretty hard they don't add up to him being in the bottom 50% of Americans.
David, has senility hit him pretty hard? This is a question with an answer.

Quote:
At least not in things like IQ tests or chess puzzles. However the largest part of their underestimation is not fully getting what it means to be in the bottom 50%.
Sklansky you enormously overrate how smart your peer group is.

Quote:
I once was involved with a bet that showed that casino workers in about 1990 were 25% to know each of the following:

Who is the vice president?

Who is the leader of Cuba?

Who was president during the Civil War?

What is 9x6?

Who was the most recent president to be assassinated?

What state is Philadelphia in?

I swear. And I think these people were only barely below average.
I don't believe you.


Quote:
Put another way, I don't think you guys realize that 95% of the people posting here are in the top 5% of Americans at the very least.
lol no

Quote:
And I think Trump is, by our definition, both not smart and lazy. Some of you may remember that I persuaded Stupak to spend tens of thousands on ads challenging him to a million dollar heads up match at Trump The Game EVEN THOUGH TRUMP COULD HAVE INSTANTLY GOTTEN OUT OF THE TRAP IF HE KNEW HIS OWN GAME REQUIRED THREE PLAYERS. We took that small risk that he knew and, as expected, he didn't.

But remember that this all started when I wrote that his "we love our dreamers" proved his ultimate goal was for them to not be deported. And people tried to say that the statement meant nothing either because he was uttering a platitude without realizing the implications or, worse yet, didn't realize that "dreamers" were the same people as those affected by DACA. I said, cmon he is not that dumb, an an unsenile Trump clearly is not.
Like, Chris hinted towards this, but more specifically... being President is an enormous boost to your displayed intelligence. Normal people have no writers, no messaging people, no advisors. He has an entire apparatus of state designed to make him sound smart and he absolutely does not understand the very basic elements of, e.g., health care policy.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-ideology.html

This very astute Chait article both explains Trump and also explains why a certain demo of older white dudes want to stick up for Trump's intelligence(even if they disagree with him)

Quote:
It is widely known that Trump — whose political profile over the decades has vacillated from liberal to conservative to moderate to populist, and supported and opposed abortion rights, higher taxes on the rich, and universal health care — does not care very much about political ideas. This explanation is true, but incomplete. The president also does not know very much about political ideas. And it is not merely the details of policy that he lacks. Trump has no context for processing ideas. He does not understand which kinds of ideas imply support for which kinds of policies, nor why political figures tend to believe what they do, nor why they agree or disagree with one another. He is capable of forming strongly held beliefs about people in politics, but he does so in entirely personal terms. Trump’s flamboyant, weird ignorance reveals a distinct pattern. He is not so much nonideological as sub-ideological.

      
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