do you have any empirical evidence that most of the infiltrators have intent to do real harm (and by that I mean, y'know, actually wanna hurt someone, not just return to their homes that were stolen from them)?

Wait, there are actually people buying into Syria's sleight of hand...


This is too funny.

Oh wait, I too am shocked if you try to stage an incursion of on of the combatants territory in an active war zone you might get shot.

Do you think this could happen in Korea too?

Wow, this is changing my whole world view....lol.

How sad Syria is shipping in poor Arabs to HOPEFULLY get mowed down by Israel just to deflect attention over their crimes against humanity being committed as we speak...but I suppose there is always some antisemite/delusional college student ready to sup up anything negative about the Jewish state.

lol, ya def brah....lol.

Id love to see Jews trying to "return to their homes that were stolen from them" in Hebron/Tunis/Cairo try to just march into Arab capitols and peacefully reclaim their lost land.


That probably go really well....no mob lynchings at all...oh wait...

what exactly are you talking about?

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columni...aspx?id=224189

The IDF must stop shooting the unarmed

I'm in closer agreemnet to this guy.

I think Israeli citizens should be angry and American citizens ashamed if these types of technologies are not made available asap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device

Misses the bigger picture IMO. I don't think the administration is afraid of letting in a few hundred protesters to run around before sending them back. The bigger fear is that this will escalate into bigger and bigger events and than when lethal force is mandated you will have a few hundred killed.

Has it been mentioned that when the border guards used tear gas the protesters all dispersed?

It was widely reported that non-lethal means were used several times and it wasnt until those means were exhausted that live fire was used at the protestors lower bodies.

This isnt that controversial...

You choose to try to attempt an incursion in an active war zone, you will probably be facing life threatening force.

I dont get why this is so mind boggling to some.

The Syrians shipped these people there and encouraged this flare up to deflect domestic/intl attention away from massacres of their own people who are protesting the Alawi facist rule there.

You guys cant really be buying into this...CAN YOU?

REALLY??

I don't get it... what exactly are people supposed to buying into?

Oh and I like how throughout this thread (and just in general) there is a complete infantilization of the general Arab population. As in, Arabs do whatever their corrupt leaders tell them, leaders need to 'prepare' their Arab population for x and y, Arabs can't think or act for themselves, etc. It's shameful.

It has not be widely reported this way at all.
Verbal warning were given, then shot in the air then actual shots at person. It was not till later that tear gas was used.

This is how it has been widely reported in the UK.

to see this being justified itt by associating possible kidnappings of Israeli soldiers with dead demonstrators is a joke.

is shooting at people with live rounds the only anti-riot/crowd control tactic known to the Israelis?

If clear warnings are given (if people keep coming they will be shot) and after warning shots are fired and they keep coming still, shooting at the lower body is justified in my opinion. This is an enemy border.

I understood that the soldiers were heavily outnumbered in some of the early incidents. If non lethal means are available, fine. If not, and the correct warning procedures are followed, I am fine with shots being fired. The one thing that is clear is that once they have been warned and dont stop, they can't be surprised they were fired on.

were these people armed (with guns not stones)?

if not do you have any issues with them being shot dead?

I have no idea and its obviously not possible for them to be searched. This is not some anti globalization internal riot. This is an enemy border with a country at war with israel. You want to protest without threatening the border or soldiers, fine. If you go further and receive clear warning that you will be shot if you continue, and you continue I have absolutely have no problem with warning shots and then shots tip the lower body.

Its easy for you to say that the threat of kidnapping, etc... Is not a concern. It is not the view of the vast majority of the county. It takes incredible naivete or a serious dedication to the belief that israel cannot ever defend itself to suggest that such action is not reasonable in this situation (of course there are weekly demonstrations elsewhere that only use non lethal riot control methods, but you probably aren't happy with israel using these either - and I have already explained that the Egyptian border is breached daily and no one is shot).

This is a completely different situation.

I'm not so sure about that. It's certainly logical that more people (those unwilling to take a bullet) would try to cross, but if these incidents continue (justified legally or not) your going to get global outrage. It's been a relatively mute topic so far but if it blows up (like things generally do relating to Israel) than you can expect huge events.

so you have no issues with your army killing unarmed civilians, cool. (something messed up with that but i'll leave you to work it out for yourself)

how are these demonstrators any different from an anti globalization mob? they have an issue and want to march about it - is not deserving of getting shot dead.

as for the kidnappings i'm not denying they happen, but to associate them with these demonstrations is just spreading nonsense/propaganda.

lol@ but they were trying to invade us.

--

btw don't attribute **** to me that i have not said or even hinted at like - i'd have a problem no matter how Israel had handled this.

there would be no issue (i mean no 20 dead demonstrators) if they would just stop resorting to live fire at the first sign of any hassle imo.

IDF Timeline Video of Flotilla Raid

No issues at all - as long as the standard procedure is followed (warn explicitly of the response and carry out the step by step procedure until that response is forced). No, i have no problem at all.

Thanks for leaving it up to me by the way. I wish you would do the same for all issues involving my country. Can you be any more condescending?

You seem to think of these kinds of events as some sort of a game - a few innocent Syrians demonstrating on the border. The fact is - as i have mentioned more than once - that these people are well aware of the response that will happen and are warned in explicit terms of the IDF reaction if they continue to violate a border from a state officially at war with Israel. If they choose to carry on with their provocations, the result that follows is one that has been explained to them in their own language, multiple times, with various preliminary steps taken that they could stop at any time if they so chose.

A poster talked about people treating Arabs as infants. When you are warned explicitly about the result of your actions and you - step by step - take every action that will lead to the IDF opening fire, despite being able to prevent such action at multiple points, then these people bear full responsibility for the result. You are simply living in a fantasy land if you think that protecting borders against a country that is officially at war with you could be done in any other way. Talk about infantilising the arabs (I absolutely disagree with the assertion that people have done any such thing in this thread, but whatever...). These people are violating a de facto border, with a state that they are officially at war with, and are warned explicitly what will happen if they escalate their aggression. You would have to consider these people stupid or child like to absolve them of any responsibility for their own actions. They are making a choice - as adults - with full knowledge of the results. Give them the credit they deserve! This is not a shoot on sight policy of the IDF, and you all know it.

They obviously think it is deserving of such a fate - unless you think they are children with no ability to make decisions for themselves. Again, they are not being shot at on sight! Do you credit these people with the ability to make their own decisions or not!?

And if you cannot see why these people are not the same as an internal protest, then there is no point continuing this ridiculous debate.

Good work forcing the "anyone disagreeing with me is a fear mongering propagandist" bull**** into your argument. Maybe you want to actually explain why the threat is so ridiculous to me and Israelis in general, seeing as you seem to be such an expert. I have told you already why and how such a scenario is so feared - that you dismiss such a universal Israeli fear with not even an argument is extremely telling. And, of course, the consequences of a kidnapping are generally much worse for the population from where a kidnapping takes place - why wouldnt you object to a situation that creates this fear? A situation chosen at multiple points by the people involved and a situation that they could prevent easily at many stages?!

Yeah, they are adults with essentially complete knowledge - hold them to the same level of responsibility that you would any other people.

Other than you infantilising them, your only other option is to state that you feel that they have the right to breach Israel's borders at their whim. Is this your position?

And this exposes your ridiculous thinking on this matter.

These people have the opportunity to protest however they wish in their own country (of course they dont, but that is a different discussion). They have the opportunity to avert any bloodshed at any stage they wish. That you call an assault on a border from a country officially at war with Israel, with the history that Israel has had with cross border attacks, a "hassle" is just outrageous. The use of unarmed civilians is something that has been used again and again against Israel, specifically for the reason that everyone in the region knows that the IDF will generally not fire unless absolutely necessary and if they do, there is some great propaganda pictures/video, and to hell with the lives they have thrown away. Win, win.

Honestly, of all the topics discussed in this "Israel-Palestine thread" (which in reality is only about bad things Israel has done), this is the most ridiculous.

Do I have any issue with someone knowingly traveling to an open war zone to get shot....and then suprisingly getting shot....

Iunno, how outraged am I supposed to feel again?

You cannot be this dense....

Putting aside the fact that your defensive about the idea of suggesting Israel make certain changes, I think were in agreement.

You see what is happening and you understand the inevitable. So I'll ask you what should be done. Do you think Israel needs to change it's ROE?

crossing a magic line is considered aggression... good to know

"Defensive"

Who said im Israeli, or even a classical zionist....lol.

My end game would be pretty amenable to Palestinian national aspirations, tbh.

This type of broken record propaganda by the tin pot dictators of the region really is just so revolting to me though.

The truth is the rejectionist, head in the sand, im going to have a temper tantrum in Washington to show what an independant man I am, right winger who leads Israel is a pretty big impediment to peace as well.

He does not bus people onto a war frontier in hopes of a bloodbath/good PR though....

Try passing one on any active war frontier....

The bullets and exploding mines will be a clear indication you are sounding like a moron right now.

just lol.