Concerto might not see this, but a necessary part of this argument is that there are people who are unaware that the people standing outside the Home Depot are day laborers. You seem to be aware that going to Home Depot is a way to acquire short term employment. Did you see an advertisement?

Correct. If there was a janitor job that payed $200k/yr, sign me up. I'll go compete for it, hopefully win, and do it to the best of my ability.

However, we both know that no such job exists.

Thus, when someone takes a janitor job for $30k/yr, or whatever the average janitor makes, they haven't "taken" a higher paying job, or even the opportunity to compete for that higher paying job, from me. They took a job I had no interest in.

Similarly, if someone is on the cusp of hiring me for a $200k/yr janitor job, and you come in and lowball me, saying you'll do the job for $100k/yr, have you taken the job from me? And what if someone else comes along and lowballs you, saying they'll do it for $50k/yr, who's taken the job from whom?

Huh. Interesting perspective. Rhetorically, if an Escalade driver passes over you to hire Raul, has Raul taken your job?

Whether it's accurate to say that I have "taken" your job or not can be debated (and semantic debates are never interesting). This does show how supply/demand work and why unskilled laborers and their families and friends have good reason to be concerned.

Well no, I never had that job to begin with. If they told me at the end of the day not to come back tomorrow because they were going to hire Raul instead, then they would be taking my job.

And that's really the point about day labor, at least doing construction work. You really want those follow on calls. You don't want to be hanging in the Home Depot parking lot cattle call, hoping against hope to get lucky. You want to be in a few good contractors speed-dials so they ask you first before they cruise the Home Depot. And in the real work world this is the priority... 1) young and strong, 2) having a car and phone, 3) good English skills, 4) everything else, 5) big government "do you have your papers" bull****.

OK, let's not debate the meaning of the word "taken." Was I harmed? I mean, if that punk hadn't accepted the $30k/yr janitor post, his new employer might have one day been willing to pay me $200k/yr. Now I don't have that opportunity.

The situation is more complex when considering "gray market" jobs which have the appearance of being illegitimate. Besides, no one is saying there aren't a few jobs that only economic refugees with no other options will do.

However, if there were significant numbers of such jobs which "Americans won't do," we would expect certain things to happen: 1) some of them, for whatever reason, would get publicly advertised, 2) no Americans would show up to apply and 3) this happening would be documented somewhere that can be cited here.

hmmm. I dunno. Good question. Yes?

You would have been better off if that other person didn't exist or was artificially prevented from competing with you.

What if you already had the 200k/yr job and I showed up and offered to do it for 30k/yr. Are you harmed then?

If I'm not under contract, I don't really have the right to complain. I need to either show that I'm 7 times as productive, lower my price and show that I'm proportionally more productive, or find someone else who will pay me that much.

The person we're neglecting from this equation, of course, is my employer, another American. Why should we make him pay me $200k/yr when you'll do it for $30k? Any money I don't lose is his loss. But I guess Concerto doesn't think that measurable harm to employers by making them spend too much on wages doesn't count. The only harm that counts is to American employees.

Well, thanks for showing up and providing evidence that a good, hardworking American citizen can indeed compete with illegal immigrants head to head successfully and even make a living he likes doing it.

We shouldn't. But it still sucks for you.

So? Lots of things suck for me. You got all angry that I called anti-immigration people dumb, but do you have a point in this thread? Are they not dumb? Are they right? One side has to be.

It's good for the owner of the roofing company or lettuce farm. It kinda goes back to who's hiring them, doesn't it? You're blaming illegals for a market created by the owners.

I also agree with Wookie that it's kinda ridiculous that Americans can only find jobs through advertising. Does that imply that immigrants are more resourceful when looking for a job?



b

Maybe they're also hiring Raul because he's a better and more dependable worker. Again, the argument goes towards those hiring the immigrants.

Dependability should be on your list there somewhere. I'd say between 1 and 3.

b

Maybe Americans are just overpriced. Maybe it shouldn't cost 200-300k for education. Maybe a textbook shouldn't cost $300.

Is it immigrants that are taking the mid-upper jobs when those jobs are outsourced?

b

Don't worry, Fly, you didn't upset me. I was just a bit curious why you decided to jump into the tread out of the blue already angry and was wondering who the **** you were talking to. Was my "Reads right wing blog--> gets pissed--> hops on 2p2 to express outrage" theory accurate?

As to me itt, i'm simply answering Wookie's questions.

I do find it interesting that you want me to choose either shirts or skins and stubbornly defend that side. I know you're gonna be a lawyer and that's pretty much what you have to do. I much prefer to take arguments one at a time, debate them on their merit, and play devil's advocate when needed to facilitate discussion and explore issues and arguments.

ETA: oh, and make random funnies. I'm mostly bored at work.

I personally find it pretty interesting that the left seem to even want to find a viable solution on this issue. Their presentation of the issues seems as deluded as the right to me.

I walked into such a sad time at the station. As I walked out, felt my own need just beginning.

Jay- I think you may be reading significantly more passion into my posts than exists. Also Concerto is posting in this thread.

Lots of things suck for me too. For instance: when I get robbed, when I can't afford health care, when my home floods, etc. There are lots of things the government does for Americans even though they don't do them for Mexicans. I guess I see labor protectionism as one of those things.

Labor protectionism is a thing the government doesn't do for me, it makes my life worse.

Hypothetically it's possible that current immigration restrictions are driven by the powerful Strawberry Picker's Local lobbying wing, but since immigration is good for the vast majority of Americans we kinda need another explanation.

Explanations for the current immigration laws can be found in the Congressional record. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist, in which case there are websites that will give you plenty to work with.

You don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to think that Congressional speeches are just empty bloviating, devoid of any actual meaning, reasoning, or what the congresscritter actually thinks.

I don't even understand how Concerto thinks it's a "conspiracy theory". A conspiracy is like a secret agreement between people.

Out of curiousity, what do you do for a living?