errr I was correcting someone elses mistake (or careless language).

As I'm sure you agree talking of people 'prefering to be fat' is a mistake.

No, because what they mean is that they prefer being fat to being thing with the tradeoffs. I think you are not understanding what most people are saying when they say "prefer".

No, you're being too loose and obscuring what matters.

If people prefered to be fat then if a free pill with no side affects was available that made them thin then they woudn't take it. Of course we all know they would and so we know they prefer to be thin.

Some mistakenly deduce that must be a lack of willpower that prevent them from being thin (which they prefer to being fat) but that's a faulty deduction as the free thin pill isn't available and what is available is too expensive (in preference terms).

People are fat because they prefer the lifestyle that has being fat as a unwelcome consequence.

This is exactly what people mean when they say people prefer being fat. You are arguing with people who agree with you.

Your magic pill argument is a straw man. People saying that people prefer to be fat aren't saying they would turn down the pill.

I'm arguing with people who say its willpower.

I've no ides why you're arguing with me.

What else is will power if not the ability to look at those preferences, and then decide on the "hard" part of the equation more than the "easy"?

To a large extent that's just your prejudice.

I'm not climbing Everest because its hard even though I can see it would be quite nice to have done it, its not a lack of willpower that makes me choose lying in the sun instead.

and many people would find my lifestyle very hard. Bet you wouldn't say they lack willpower because they've taken the easy option.

I would if they bitched about their choices in life?

Its mainly people bitching about their choices as far as I can see.

A lot of the rest is defensive. If you attack them they defend themselves with any argument. currently we live in a society where demanding respect and denying responsibility work well so that's what they do.

OK I really have no idea what you're talking about, so I guess I'll bow out at this point.

How does that not demonstrate that it's a willpower issue???

same thing IMO

duh? So what? None of them are going to lose weight at that rate by themselves, DUCY?

Chez, I would appreciate a more expansive explanation of what you mean by "willpower".

When this is over, let's talk about shy people. I have serious issues with them.

It's not over?

Willpower makes little sense to me. Trying to stay alive while drowning is a preference of life>>>>>>>>>death and not an act of willpower. So being fat>being thin when being thin=no burger or icecream. Obviously a lot more complicated that that, have to consider personal motivations and such, but it's like an equation.

Being fat = burgers (+5) Ben and Jerry's chocolate chip cookie dough (+33) bust knee (-2) and 2 ltrs coke a day (+10) = +46

Being thin = no burgers (-5) no ice cream (-3) NBA star (+10) million $$$ paycheck (+20) = +22

Fatness ftw by 24 points, MVP was the chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.

Any win by 20 or more = super motivated to be fat, result is 100+ lbs overweight
Any win by 10 to 19 = motivated to be fat, result is 50-100lbs overweight

And so on.

Edit: Willpower might just mean ability to tolerate miserable conditions for long-term gain. But again, that would depend on the preferences.

Shy people are basically just like gay people when you think about it.

Okay here's where you're going wrong in your deduction.

Suppose there is some quantifiable willpower in play hear. Mr X is fat but wants to be thin. Mr X need willpower factor 10 but only has willpower factor 9 so in consequence he is fat.

His world changes to one where there's comradeship, competitiveness, fear of looking stupid, financial rewards etc and he loses weight. You deduce he must now have willpower factor 10, proved by the fact he lost weight but you haven't shown that the new environment diddn't just make it easier to resist over-eating and so reduce the willpower needed to factor 9, which Mr X has and so loses weight.

The whole concept is flawed. You could just as well argue that someone who had resisted eating stuff they wanted and was thin but now gains weight, has increased their willpower to allow them to resist the want to be thin.

As to what willpower is: stand between me and my steak and you'll see willpower in action

Willpower is the ability to take that equation you're doing, and then add extra points to get to your goal. Obviously if preferences or incentives change, attitudes can change, that's the whole point.

Lets make it even clearer. Wev could just as easily claim the contestants who lose weight have less willpower than before.

They used to want to eat loads and had enough willpower to resist the desire to be healthy but now they have less willpower, cannot resist the desire to be healthy and so eat less.

You're just blinded by the your prejudice that makes you think that what they REALLY want is to be healthy but lack the willpillower to resist the evil siren call of food.

What are you talking about?

There's a symmetry and you can't see it.

More willpower to fill the want to be healthy is the same as less willpower to fill the want to eat food.

Yet you want to claim more willpower - its just prejudice.

Huh?

I'm once again going to bow out because I have no idea what you're talking about.

YES.

THIS.

EXACTLY.