Israel's proclamation of independence, May 1948:

"In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all."

There was far more encouragement for Arabs to leave Israel by other Arab groups, than there was from Jews looking for Arabs to leave. The overwhelming sentiment was that the mixing of the two was impossible.

But the point that you consistently seem to be willing to gloss over is how Jews were expelled from Arab countries. If we start to go down that road, it's an argument you will not win. In most Arab countries, if an Israeli passport or star of David is found, you risk your life. But meanwhile you're talking about Palestinian apartheid like it's some sort of isolated issue in the region.

The Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories have lived under Israeli apartheid since 1967. There was no need for Israel to settle in the West Bank and treat the local Palestinians as they do. It was their free choice.

If Palestinians can ride on any bus as claimed, why the creation of a whole new subsidized route just for them?

The reports from the field are that the army is taking Palestinians off the buses in settler areas. The ministry statement is not being followed.

A lot is being made of the "subsidy" for the new routes for Palestinians, apparently to show Israeli generosity. It shows something different. The Palestinians are so despised that the government will pay extra so the settlers do not have to sit by them.

In America, we settled segregation by using the National Guard to enforce integration. Israel uses the army to maintain it.

And the Holocaust was even worse. Neither justifies expulsion of the Palestinians.

From the local Palestinian people living there as now. Because they wanted the rest of Palestine as Israel.

It is the Americans who have prevented peace by vetoing all the UN efforts. The rest of the world wants a reasonable solution with a genuinely independent state for the Palestinians.

Not many "hate" Israel but many do "hate" apartheid. What's difficult to understand there ?

You see, the difference between what you have to say and what the truth is, is that your claims of what "The Israelis are doing the Palestinians" are mostly bogus, invented, half-truths at best, but usually just recycled claims from the usual liars and jew-haters.

If you existed in reality and chose to acknowledge reality, you'd be crying about Syria and how the Assads have killed more "palestinians" than Israel has in its entire history, but, conveniently you seemed to have skipped any mention of the bombing of "palestinian refugee" camps.

Convenient.

I swear, if Israel gave a flower to every child in "palestine", you'd claim Israel was only trying to exacerbate pollen allergies.

When did they become "Occupied Palestinian Territories" ? They're actually Occupied Jordanian Territories, then again, Jordan doesn't want that area, and the people who live there - formerly Jordanian citizens, were never called "Palestinians" until the 1960's. Until then they were Arabs, part of the Arab nation, and identified themselves as such.

Tell me again, how does Israel "treat the local Palestinians as they do", and why are you crying about olive bushes instead of the thousands dying in Syria?

Right... how could I forget, no Jews to blame. Unless of course you think Assad is a Zionist Israeli puppet? Or is it the rebels who are the Zionist Israeli puppets? Public opinion in the ummah seems pretty split right now between the two. Either way, you still can blame Jews as many do, I guess there are limits to what kind of horse**** you think will be bought by others on this forum,

best to continue ignoring the situation entirely, and any mention of it - you're doing a great job of it so far.

Weird, Arab leaders have been saying for decades that what you call "Palestine" is (depending on which leader you ask): A. Just southern Syria B. Part of Jordan C. Palestine? No country ever existed, its a western notion!.

Please see: Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi (1937), Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations (1947) , King Abdullah (1948) ,King Hussein (1981), Abdul Hamid Sharif (1980), and many more

I've provided dates and names so can do your own research and stop deluding yourself and others into thinking there has ever been a "Palestine" nation, country, or state, or "Palestinian" culture or ethnicity. Individual quotes would probably be considered spamming, because there is just too many quotes from arab leaders acknowledging what the one quote below (from arab-american writer Joseph Farrah) sums up quite nicely.

"Palestine has never existed - before or since - as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire, and briefly by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland. There was no language known as Palestinian. There was no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a Palestine governed by the Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass. "

Tell me again WHO wants all the land? Tell me again WHO passed a race-wide (Arab league) resolution declaring (most importantly) NO PEACE - the Khartoum Resolution? Tell me again, how "reasonable" and "genuine" they are when their "Stages plan" is already well known to anyone who has eyes to read with and ears to listen?

You are so transparent, its like talking to a pane of glass.

There's nothing you hate more than Jews, especially empowered Jews in their homeland which you wrongly and ridiculously consider (like many of the terrorist groups you support) to be exclusively arab and muslim land, and no amount of "no no i only hate X, Y, and Z" will cover that up except to those who refuse (usually out of malevolence) to see what's obvious from you and your obsessions and one-line rhetoric, and except to those who are just too dumb to recognize it (usually out of ignorance) when they see it.

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel."

~the terrorist Yassir Arafat on Jordan TV

I suppose he is in fact quite genuine- when speaking to the Arab masses, as opposed to the gullible west.

Say that's true. How does it justify the never-ending evictions? Or blocking travel to higher education near or far? Etc.

The fact that the people had never had freedom was all the more reason for them to get it. A lot of people lived under imperialist rule. Lots of people were freed and countries formed in the last century. The view of some posters seems to be that they'd never been free so it's ok for Israel to carry on ruling over them with as their new colonial masters.

How do you live with yourself?

I'm not denying there are people who want to be "free"... even though the defintions of the anti-Israel crowd of things like "freedom" and "justice" and "peace" are deranged and mutilated versions of what they should be. I'm arguing that there has never been a "Palestine" state, country, kingdom or nation, and that as a result there has never been a "Palestinian" culture, ethnicity, heritage, or history. Its completely invented, a fraud, a hoax, a sham. Worse, its an invention of a nation specifically for the purpose of destroying another, more legitimate (by history, heritage, and connection to the land) nation. But don't take my word for it, Arab leaders who have admitted that the entire "Palestinian" identity is just a tool to destroy Israel, such as

PLO member Zahir Muhsein,

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a
Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle
against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality
today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and
tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of
a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand
that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian
people' to oppose Zionism.

"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state
with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa.
While as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa,
Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we
reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even
a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

Speaking of Imperialism, the Islamic yolk which had been on the Jewish homeland since the Arab conquests has finally been cast off - its the same yolk that covered the persians, berbers, spaniards, turks, hindus, the same one that today encourages genocide of native black africans in Sudan. The same one that would today cover all of Europe if not for the defeat of Islam at the battle of Tours.

Meanwhile, you continue to ignore the substance and questions posed to you in my previous posts.

Ignorance is your only ally. Again, how do you live with yourself?

You should watch Unsettled, the 2005 documentary about the Jews who were forcibly removed from their homes during the disengagement from Gaza. Here's an article about it:

http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/decon...ts-discussion/

And here is the entire movie for free. It's pretty emotional for me to watch it. I have no idea how you'll feel, or if you'll dedicate the time to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFeq_H-46Do

It shows a pretty interesting and fragile balance between moderates, hardcore zionists (they'll call themselves that), and everyone else. The average Israeli is still very conflicted over orthodox commoties like this one. After all these years I still haven't completed formed an opinion on it, I'm always going back and forth.

Setting everything else aside, it is frustrating (as someone who certainly has a different perspective than you do) when people who are typically "pro-Palestinian" brand Israelis as all super anti-Palestinian, etc. Israel is very divided on these issues. Generalizations are bad and we seem to regularly forget that.

Btw this movie does an excellent job of showing just how varied people are politically and religiously in the country. So when you say things like "Israel does this" and "Israeli apartheid", frankly it's as racist as saying Palestinian Terrorists when talking about every Palestinian. It's a rock and a hard place scenario right now, not some sort of chosen oppression of Palestinians because of some thirst to see them suffer. That's a fairy tale.

Wow weird we posted the same thing at the same time. Crazy.

Btw if you asked the average Israeli if they'd care if a peaceful Arabic community could live with them in Israel (ie share), you'd (Haywood) be overwhelmed by how many would be totally fine with it. And that was the case in the 40's, 50's, 60's, etc.. But radicals have been using this take an inch/take a foot approach since the word go. The ultimate goal isn't about sharing Israel with the Jews when it comes to the radical Islam side of this. It's about extinction.

Using the name of the country is a standard synonym for the government. It goes without saying that not all Israelis agree with their government. Most of the critical information I post comes from brave Israelis. Note the difference between saying "Israel subsidizes the growth of settlements" (true) and "Israelis believe in expanding the settlements" (not so true, maybe mostly false).

That's fair.

A lot of good posts in the last dozen or so. You've managed to dodge most of the content in them. Did you check out that movie?

When it's TL;DR of invective, no I don't respond carefully, but if there's something specific you'd like to discuss I'd be happy to.

I'll make you a deal. You watch Five Broken Cameras and I'll watch the Gaza film.

Sure, have a link to it?

Has there ever been a government right or left which hasn't built illegal settlements in the West Bank since Israel occupied the land in 1967 ? I didn't notice any great "divided" debate on the settlements in the last election. There appeared to be a consensus that they should stay and be expanded across the political spectrum. However I do remember a more right-wing leader being elected after the Operation Cast Lead "massacre".

It is on Netflix watch it now. It hasn't been out long so there might not be free access anywhere.

I'll try to track it down.

Btw the TL;DR comment, in a discussion this complex, is sort of horrible. We're not going to debate these points in point form.

You left out the modifier "of invective." Confluence's mod-deleted post said something about "shove it so far up your intestinal tract." You seriously expect me to engage with that? After ten years of the same? I put up a quick comment so other readers know that the post did not go without a response. If you care to check thread histories you'll find I'm willing converse in depth, if that's what's going on.

The Israeli system in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is apartheid. That's pretty evident and expressed often both in Israel and outside of it. It's specious to turn reality on its head to say that anyone who is truthful about it is racist.

I agreed with that until you said "radical Islam" was taking the inches and feet. It's the Israelis who have been taking the land and the issue is about land not religion. If you had put "radical Judaism/Jews" instead then it would have been more sensible as many of the settlers are ideologically driven.

I miss the old software's ability to insert a poll mid-thread. I'd like one for this question:

'Should Obama visit/not visit the Temple Mount and why/why not?'

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/...-temple-mount/

WASHINGTON (CBSDC/AP) — Hamas is warning that if President Obama visits the Temple Mount it would be a “declaration of war” against the Islamic world.

Israel National News reports the terror group made the threat during a protest march at the religious site following riots on Friday.

'following riots', lol. But standard I suppose.

Here are the riots (those sounds are molotov cocktails and smoke bombs.


But its more than just the Temple Mount visit that's making them angry. They're also just furious that Shimon Peres is serving him hummus and falafel for dinner, if you can believe it.

And all of this immediately after, of course, the UN report on last year's Amud Anan operation showed that they were in fact the ones who killed the son of BBC reporter Jihad Masharawi. This after Human Rights Watch, the entire world media, and so-called peaceful NGOs accused Israel of being at fault. I don't know how Bill Haywood, who is normally so quick to post news on Israel, missed that one.

Yesterday, two army pilots were killed in a helicopter training accident. of course, that didn't escape Hamas' attention either:

These are cwocwoc's heros, who are only resisting "occupation", who want peace so badly.