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05-10-2011 , 09:53 AM
Old ppl ldo

Last edited by suzzer99; 05-10-2011 at 09:54 AM. Reason: heh simulposting
05-10-2011 , 09:54 AM
Your old people too slow!
05-10-2011 , 10:04 AM
Religious people too
05-10-2011 , 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosdef
Good post, Fly.

I've talked about this before here, where I read two books in one week where one was from a "left" point of view and one was from a "right" point of view. It was very comical because each book had parts where they were arguing that academic centers are terribly biased to the other side and had all kinds of "evidence" (anecdotal, of course) that universities were just brainwashing centers converting people to be socialists/Randians and it wasn't fair that The Truth (which varied by author) was being suppressed by scandalous misrepresentation in the academic system. The belief that the academic community is a nefarious tool of the enemy is a fallacy on both sides of the left/right debate.
I don't think there's any conscious conspiracy. Bureaucracies naturally tend to develop self-protecting behavior.
05-10-2011 , 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Every person more than a standard deviation away from the political center has two hilarious beliefs:

1) That their beliefs are more common than they truly are

2) That the reason their beliefs aren't universally regarded as THE TRUTH is because of a pervasive (yet poorly explained) media/academia/etc. conspiracy against THE TRUTH by Capitalists/Corporatists/Socialists/Lizardpeople.

These kinda seem contradictory, but seriously, everyone ask themselves right now why they think, say, marijuana isn't legal.
this poast is EXACTLY what a lizardperson would say.
05-10-2011 , 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Every person more than a standard deviation away from the political center has two hilarious beliefs:

1) That their beliefs are more common than they truly are

2) That the reason their beliefs aren't universally regarded as THE TRUTH is because of a pervasive (yet poorly explained) media/academia/etc. conspiracy against THE TRUTH by Capitalists/Corporatists/Socialists/Lizardpeople.

These kinda seem contradictory, but seriously, everyone ask themselves right now why they think, say, marijuana isn't legal.
It's amazing how you think you have so much insight into the inner-workings of the minds of others.

1) No, I'll be shocked if marijuana is legal before I'm an old fogey.

2) No, misguided and misinformed people with good intentions are all the explanation that is needed for much of the bad things done by government.

Boom. Refuted.
05-10-2011 , 10:34 AM
I don't think either of you guys really got what I was getting at there.
05-10-2011 , 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvn
I don't think there's any conscious conspiracy. Bureaucracies naturally tend to develop self-protecting behavior.
That's true, but the universities certainly do promote a fair degree of academic freedom and there's plenty of subversion among academics as well.

The other thing is that tons and tons of academic work is 100% apolitical, yet they still get funding. Whether someone is working diligently on an obscure mathematical question that 6 people in the world understand and that 3 care about, or is engaged in a fierce debate about whether the correct translation of the 6th word of the 934th line of Beowulf is "should" rather than the commonly accepted "would", there is little political influence brought to bear on whether or not the person is of the correct political leaning to get a research grant.
05-10-2011 , 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Right. Awarding electoral votes proportionally would blunt most of the bad consequences that justifiably and immediately spring to mind when people criticize the electoral college. There's no Constitutional reason that can't happen, as the Constitution empowers states to decide on their own how to award their electors, and as you note, states like Maine and Nebraska have decided to award their electors proportionally.

The problem is 48 states have decided on their own to award their electors on the first-past-the-post model. You can imagine why more states don't do this; there's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma we saw in Nebraska in the aftermath of 2008: Barack Obama got 1 of Nebraska's 5 electoral votes, so the GOP, who control the state government and know that proportionally awarding electors is beneficial to Democrats since the GOP is a great bet to win all 5 electoral votes if they awarded all to the state winner, sprung into action to revert Nebraska's current system to a winner-take-all allocation.

Any time the party controlling the state legislature/governor thought their party had a better than average chance of winning more electoral votes in a winner-take-all system than they would proportionally be awarded, they would be a good bet to move to change the law.
You have to love how the Nebraska GOP is styling a return to the nearly universally loathed "winner take all" system as "Reform." And how the newspaper uncritically calls it that.
05-10-2011 , 10:43 AM
It's not like there's a much more substantiative rejection of what you're saying than "No, I don't believe those things you claim I believe."

Last edited by AKSpartan; 05-10-2011 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Re: FlyWf
05-10-2011 , 10:53 AM
This Is What We (Ridiculously) Thought Osama Was Hiding in Ten Years Ago

The War on Terror in a nutshell, imo
05-10-2011 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
I don't think either of you guys really got what I was getting at there.
No, everyone got it.
05-10-2011 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vixticator
I had some wild variance in my professors, at least two seemed a bit on the conservative side, others were typical left of center, one was a Stalinist (his words), etc. Fairly diverse group. Don't think I was brainwashed.

In a media studies class the prof made us show up the day of 9/11, so obv Al Queda there.
I don't want this to seem like I'm simply repeating a right-wing talking point (although I essentially am, I just think it happens to be one with some value), but I have no idea how self-avowed Stalinists are hired as university professors. There is almost no way a self-described Nazi or fascist would be given a job as a professor at any univeristy besides Mises University, so why the double-standards and adherence to intellectual freedom when it comes to Stalinists. The ideas Stalinists hold are far more abhorrant than your run of the mill fascists, and maybe about as bad as a Nazi sympathizer, so why di we put up with lovers of Uncle Joe, but not of old Adolf?

I realize its a kind of Ann Coulterish talking point, but I really don't get it. Why are these scumbags not ostracized?
05-10-2011 , 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
I don't want this to seem like I'm simply repeating a right-wing talking point (although I essentially am, I just think it happens to be one with some value), but I have no idea how self-avowed Stalinists are hired as university professors.
Probably because no professors are really self-avowed Stalinists.

I know Vixticator said his professor was, but color me skeptical.
05-10-2011 , 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynton
Probably because no professors are really self-avowed Stalinists.

I know Vixticator said his professor was, but color me skeptical.
One possibility is that his professor got his job by merely claiming to be a communist, and then later "outed" himself as a Stalinist. Once he's got tenure, he can't lose it for something as mundane as being a cheerleader for a mass murderer. You pretty much have to be a mass murderer yourself to lose tenure.
05-10-2011 , 12:11 PM
Uganda voting on death penalty for homosexuality. Vomit inducing obviously. Not sure what effect online petitions have but these guys claim they managed to block a previous bill and taking a few seconds to sign it couldn't hurt.

http://www.avaaz.org/en/uganda_stop_...ia_petition?fp
05-10-2011 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
I don't want this to seem like I'm simply repeating a right-wing talking point (although I essentially am, I just think it happens to be one with some value), but I have no idea how self-avowed Stalinists are hired as university professors. There is almost no way a self-described Nazi or fascist would be given a job as a professor at any univeristy besides Mises University, so why the double-standards and adherence to intellectual freedom when it comes to Stalinists. The ideas Stalinists hold are far more abhorrant than your run of the mill fascists, and maybe about as bad as a Nazi sympathizer, so why di we put up with lovers of Uncle Joe, but not of old Adolf?

I realize its a kind of Ann Coulterish talking point, but I really don't get it. Why are these scumbags not ostracized?
Errrr... Maybe they are really, really good at math or whatever their field of expertise is.
05-10-2011 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
Jeez, they said they're "backing away" from the death penalty, you bleeding hearts will never be satisfied!
05-10-2011 , 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
... There is almost no way a self-described Nazi or fascist would be given a job as a professor at any univeristy besides Mises University,...
Somehow the Charlie Sheen avatar is fitting. And it's not because you're #winning.
05-10-2011 , 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Raker
Errrr... Maybe they are really, really good at math or whatever their field of expertise is.
Would it get overlooked if a really good math professor was a vocal neo-Nazi or fascist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mosdef
One possibility is that his professor got his job by merely claiming to be a communist, and then later "outed" himself as a Stalinist. Once he's got tenure, he can't lose it for something as mundane as being a cheerleader for a mass murderer. You pretty much have to be a mass murderer yourself to lose tenure.
Maybe. I mean, after spending the whole of the year studying the Russian Revolution, I'm really at a loss as to how people who defend Lenin and Leninism and look to him as a great leader, and see the Russian Revolution as a great thing that only got corrupted by Stalin are not publicly ostracized. I've just been revizing the Red Terror, and Lenin and others admitted that what they were doing was liquidating an entire class of people solely based on their (alleged) class. This is a pretty fundamental tenet to Marxist-Leninist philosophy and actions. And that's even before the Stalinist phase. So I guess I really don't see why we overlook these kinds of abhorrant, frankly genocidal beliefs in Communists, when we ignore them on the right.

Yeah, I'm basically ressurecting Cold War type views of Communism and Communists, but I don't see why I shouldn't, given the inconsistency I believe there is, and given the nature of those beliefs.

You might be right about the tenure thing though.
05-10-2011 , 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKSpartan
Somehow the Charlie Sheen avatar is fitting. And it's not because you're #winning.
Mises defenders. Racist and can't take a joke
05-10-2011 , 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWf
Sort of related to that, you guys all remember how excited everybody got in that thread about how "mainstream" economics is only the mainstream because the Fed somehow finances higher education and like, makes them teach fiction like "market failure" and "externalities" and "any theory developed after 1915"?

http://www.tampabay.com/news/busines...raises/1168680

The Koch Brothers are buying economics professors chairs at multiple public universities with the requirement that they be filled with free marketeers.

BB&T, a bank, apparently funds courses at 60 universities with the proviso that those courses include Atlas Shrugged as required reading.
oh the horror
05-10-2011 , 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
I've just been revizing the Red Terror, and Lenin and others admitted that what they were doing was liquidating an entire class of people solely based on their (alleged) class. This is a pretty fundamental tenet to Marxist-Leninist philosophy and actions. And that's even before the Stalinist phase. So I guess I really don't see why we overlook these kinds of abhorrant, frankly genocidal beliefs in Communists, when we ignore them on the right.
I guess part of it is that the horror of the early Soviets is fading in history and the "evilness" of it hasn't been preserved culturally the same way that, say, the Nazis' was. If you walk up to a random person on the street and say that you think Hitler's not so bad, they'll immediately have a strong reaction based on social norms. If you say that you think Stalin's not so bad, a fair number of people will say "who?"

Also, general class extermination isn't necessarily a cultural taboo. Again, if you go around suggesting that all Wall St bankers be hung you'll get a mix of responses including "that's horrible", "that's a little extreme, I think", "that's a great idea", and "that's a good start". Dehumanizing individuals by putting them into large groups that you are then allowed to hate isn't exactly unique to attitudes towards Stalinism.
05-10-2011 , 12:49 PM
05-10-2011 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not_In_My_Name
Mises defenders. Racist and can't take a joke
It loses its charm when there's no sanity or seriousness to balance it. Not that I care so much what a fervent imperialist thinks.

      
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