July LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition** - Page 67 - Politics and Economics

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July LC Thread **Survivor White House Edition**

View Poll Results: Who will NOT survive the month of July?

Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III

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John Kelly

18 35.29%

Jared Kushner

1 1.96%

Wilbur Ross

4 7.84%

Ben Carson

0 0%

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1 1.96%

Scott Pruitt

15 29.41%

Kellyanne Conway

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Rod Rosenstein

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Write-in

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07-31-2018 , 10:52 AM

#1651

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by zikzak

Who told you that's how it works in the US and why did you believe them?

I didn't say that's how it works in the US.

That was, however, my normal experience in Australia - including for various specialists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namath12

The EMT people have been placed on leave; the patient later died

Josem does this happen a lot on your island?

No - in the UK, the odd NHS doctor just straight up kills up to 650 people: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a8407686.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Truant

What GP and insurance do you have in the US? I wasn’t able to be able to see my doctor the same month in some cases last year.

I've never lived in the US.

I merely said that US/UK/AU systems are different, and have different strengths and weaknesses. It might be useful to agree on a variety of metrics for a health system, and then measure different health systems in different countries by it.

07-31-2018 , 10:56 AM

#1652

Noze

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 25,711

Money spent and when people usually die seem like good starting points.

07-31-2018 , 11:01 AM

#1653

Johnny Truant

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Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 8,058

Got it. Well, the idea that you can see your doctor quickly is not true, and that is even worse on the least expensive plans where you may not be able to find a doctor who takes your insurance and also is taking new patients.

If we want to simplify a complex issue, when obscene profits for private middle groups are being protected and incentivized over the actual purpose of health care, you are not going to have a very good system for patients or practitioners.

07-31-2018 , 11:12 AM

#1654

Namath12

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Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

No - in the UK, the odd NHS doctor just straight up kills up to 650 people: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a8407686.html

EEK! That is terrible. A single doctor killed 650 patients?

Meanwhile, medical errors in USA#1 kill more than that on a given day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.02b07e3f720b

07-31-2018 , 11:15 AM

#1655

Namath12

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Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Also USA#1 really is once again USA#1 in developed world infant mortality

07-31-2018 , 11:20 AM

#1656

eyebooger

Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 58,829

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

I merely said that US/UK/AU systems are different, and have different strengths and weaknesses. It might be useful to agree on a variety of metrics for a health system, and then measure different health systems in different countries by it.

Show us one metric that has US healthcare system > UK healthcare system.

07-31-2018 , 11:23 AM

#1657

zikzak

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 22,198

Have you seen how many people we kill with medical errors and our infant mortality rate?

07-31-2018 , 11:24 AM

#1658

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namath12

EEK! That is terrible. A single doctor killed 650 patients?

Meanwhile, medical errors in USA#1 kill more than that on a given day.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.02b07e3f720b

Yah, the point is that there are a bunch of terrible things that happen. There are many bad anecdotes.

If you want to have a worthwhile conversation, it seems to make sense to come up with some metrics, and then compare different health systems in different countries (as much as possible given the different populations, other factors, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noze

Money spent and when people usually die seem like good starting points.

Sure. These sound worthwhile.

Average wait for GP; average wait for a specialist; response time of ambulance; doctor remuneration; research conducted (new drugs created? new procedures invented?) might be others.

This might be useful in a new thread rather than here in the LC thread.

07-31-2018 , 11:26 AM

#1659

zikzak

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 22,198

Again, I'd like to know who is spreading this bull**** about US healthcare overseas. I understand the market for domestic consumption, but don't really get the export angle.

07-31-2018 , 11:29 AM

#1660

Huehuecoyotl

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 29,282

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

This might be useful in a new thread rather than here in the LC thread.

The forever repeating

The Great ObamaCare Debate, Part 236: Failed Repeal Efforts of Mitch, Cassidy, & the Dotard Kid

07-31-2018 , 11:34 AM

#1661

Namath12

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Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

There are two separate but intertwined issues with US healthcare, which are quality and how to pay for it. It seems that most of the developed world, including the UK, has solved the second one for the most part, while the US grapples with both (poorly).

07-31-2018 , 11:42 AM

#1662

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyebooger

Show us one metric that has US healthcare system > UK healthcare system.

Here's one - Doctor Pay
From 2 minutes of Google and currency conversions:

US GPs are paid, on average, USD174k

UK GPs are paid between USD74k and USD112k

https://www.payscale.com/research/US...itioner/Salary
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employ...ctitioners-pay
Currency conversion by Google using today's rates.

Here's another:

You're 5% more likely to be alive five years after being diagnosed with breast cancer in the USA than the UK, and 2% more likely to be alive if you have been diagnosed with cervical cancer.

and literally every other metric listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._of_healthcare

07-31-2018 , 11:46 AM

#1663

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

Higher doctor salaries are a point in favor of the US system????

07-31-2018 , 11:46 AM

#1664

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namath12

Yah, if you're willing to pay UK taxes, you can have the UK health system.

07-31-2018 , 11:46 AM

#1665

otatop

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 12,721

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkubus

Higher doctor salaries are a point in favor of the US system????

American CEOs are better than UK CEOs presumably for the same reason.

07-31-2018 , 11:47 AM

#1666

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkubus

Higher doctor salaries are a point in favor of the US system????

Huh? Of course it's good to reward (financially) the people who are saving lives.

I think it would be similarly good to pay teachers more, paramedics more, firefighters more and soldiers more too. Is any of this controversial?

07-31-2018 , 11:51 AM

#1667

Trolly McTrollson

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Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 37,058

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

Here's one - Doctor Pay

Amazing

07-31-2018 , 11:51 AM

#1668

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

It is to me, at least. Doctors get higher pay in the US because their numbers are restricted by a Med School/Residency system that artificially limits their supply. I can't even get seen by a doctor unless my condition is serious or requires a specialist. I see a nurse practitioner for anything routine.

Besides, the promise of the "free market" and private enterprise is that competition should drive the costs down. This clearly isn't happening in the American system.

07-31-2018 , 11:53 AM

#1669

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

Yah, if you're willing to pay UK taxes, you can have the UK health system.

I hear you. Paying $x in dollars to private health care companies is fine and American, but paying less than $x in taxes to the government to get better coverage is silliness.

07-31-2018 , 11:53 AM

#1670

Huehuecoyotl

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 29,282

Quote:

In the pre-Roe era, an illegal abortion was often a dangerous “back-alley” operation, one conducted in unsanitary conditions at great risk to the woman undergoing the procedure. Large public hospitals had “septic abortion wards” to treat women who got potentially deadly infections following botched abortions. Some women tried to self-terminate by penetrating themselves with knitting needles or coat hangers; others swallowed turpentine and bleach. In 1965, illegal abortion accounted for 17 percent of all deaths stemming from pregnancy and childbirth. Today, in the U.S. that number is about zero percent.

Damn.

https://slate.com/human-interest/201...o-herself.html

07-31-2018 , 11:54 AM

#1671

Namath12

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Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

Yah, if you're willing to pay UK taxes, you can have the UK health system.

I don't know what that means "UK taxes" can you be more specific?

I mean, I don't know if that would cost more or less than what I pay now so I have no idea if UK's system is preferable to the US system on that point.

07-31-2018 , 11:55 AM

#1672

Namath12

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josem

Here's one - Doctor Pay
From 2 minutes of Google and currency conversions:

US GPs are paid, on average, USD174k

UK GPs are paid between USD74k and USD112k

What's the current median student loan debt load for GPs in the UK?

07-31-2018 , 12:00 PM

#1673

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkubus

It is to me, at least. Doctors get higher pay in the US because their numbers are restricted by a Med School/Residency system that artificially limits their supply.

This happens globally. It's not good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

I hear you. Paying $x in dollars to private health care companies is fine and American, but paying less than $x in taxes to the government to get better coverage is silliness.

I don't think either option is "silly". I just think that health care is too important to be entrusted to a Government bureacracy - in the same way that food is too important, that clothing is too important, and that housing is too important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namath12

Not really - I'm not familiar with your taxation situation, so you are probably better off doing your own research for whatever you wish here.

07-31-2018 , 12:03 PM

#1674

Josem

human chemical weapon

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namath12

What's the current median student loan debt load for GPs in the UK?

I feel that you're just trolling me now, but this data is published online here.

07-31-2018 , 12:08 PM

#1675

Namath12

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Yeah I mean I can google it, you just came into this thread sounding like an expert and implying that the US system is vastly superior to the one under which you're forced to live so I figured I could save some time.

As it turns out, having a message board conversation with someone who knows even less than I is indeed counterproductive.

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