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July LC thread so PVN will stop posting LAST July LC thread so PVN will stop posting LAST

07-18-2017 , 11:18 AM
Like in 2017 Griftmerica, we can't be that far way from the GOP plausibly trying to say that we should rollback Medicaid and in exchange, we all get a tax credit if we agree to sign up for Ted Cruz's 3 Part Webinar where he teaches us how to become our own Personal Brand Ambassador, Refine Our Social Media Elevator Pitch and Launch Our Own Personal Lifecoach Business.
07-18-2017 , 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daca
we cant all spend our time writing 2000 word post that nobody will read. that doesnt make it wrong
Well I admittedly do love public transit but now that I've heard your idea to make it private, I must say I'm convinced.
07-18-2017 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daca
the dems should privatise more. if you love public transit then you should find a way to get so much of the running of it as possible out of government hands. similarly if you care about poor kids in ****ty schools then you should make sure the always have a decent and subsidies privat alternative.

call it scandinavian (neo)liberalism and hope it'll keep the sanders types happy
What is your solution to air pollution?
07-18-2017 , 11:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daca
the dems should privatise more. if you love public transit then you should find a way to get so much of the running of it as possible out of government hands.
As we've discussed before ITF, this kind of privatization fundamentally misunderstands the nature of public goods. I'm talking about the econ 101 textbook definition here. This proposal isn't even coherent, in other words.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simplicitus
I consider myself a pretty solid feminist, but having good college sports for women should not mean risking healthcare for millions.
I'm strongly in favor of gender equality--the label "feminism" can go **** itself--but theoretically it should be possible to pursue both of these goals, no? Are you theorizing that too much political capital was spent on gender equality over the past X years? That the price of Title IX was all the Democrats who insist that single payer will "never, ever happen" in America? That a lot of voters are actually anti-feminist or misogynist and hence won't support a platform that benefits women while it ignores issues that concern the general public? Something else?

Regardless, I think this is drastically underestimating the way Republicans' structural advantages--e.g. the electoral college--have shaped policy.
07-18-2017 , 11:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollyWantACracker
What is your solution to air pollution?
Allocate air rights and allow individuals and organizations to transact in pollution, obviously.
07-18-2017 , 11:37 AM
There should be a lot of hitchhiking imo.
07-18-2017 , 11:39 AM
Also, DVaut, I'm kind of surprised you fell for the strategic Hillary vote trap.
07-18-2017 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollyWantACracker
What is your solution to air pollution?
Call it "Pocohontas" over and over?
07-18-2017 , 11:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrollyWantACracker
What is your solution to air pollution?
tax it

Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
Well I admittedly do love public transit but now that I've heard your idea to make it private, I must say I'm convinced.
so here's the long pitch:

everything in the us is a disaster. amtrak/the ny metro/all the other trains are all horrible. trying to build new transit in new york costs 5x as much as in paris or london, so mostly it just doesnt happen which is the opposite of what liberals want. it's so bad that there are americans in my twitter feed every other day complaining about something new catching fire.

it might in theory be possible to just reform those agencies and make them work better but there's no reason to think anyone has the actual ability to do it. so instead do what the uk did in the same situation: get someone private to run it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact..._1830-2015.png

you shouldnt give up (full) ownership, just outsource the running of the systems. and when people complain about privatisation of public goods and all the other boring cliches then tell them private companies are already running stuff like the stockholm metro, commuter trains and several intercity routes, the copenhagen metro and italian high speed rail. and are generally doing it well.

in the end running stuff well will make it far easier for liberals to get more of it and they should have ideas, other than just throwing more money at it, for how to make that happen.

Last edited by daca; 07-18-2017 at 12:14 PM.
07-18-2017 , 12:14 PM


I do believe I've seen this movie before
07-18-2017 , 12:18 PM
Isn't it quite common for, say, farmers to behead chickens?
07-18-2017 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spidercrab
Isn't it quite common for, say, farmers to behead chickens?
If you call undocumented Central American refugees working in giant factories "farmers" then yes.
07-18-2017 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
I'd formulate it in a different way: again, I don't know where the 'true' median Democratic voter is on the political spectrum. What I do know is that there's a critical mass of leftists in the party, or failing a coherent ideologue test, people who express preferences for leftist policies and outcomes in public opinion polls. Are they 20% of the party? A majority of the party? 75% of the party? I don't know.

But I remain confident that as the GOP realigned the parties in the 1960s and as Reagan solidified the party as a mix of hardcore market orthodox types plus southern white supremacists and other anxious white populists, what's been created on our side is a coalition between small-l liberals, moderates, centrists, and the left. As you described.

My point is that the left needs to be far more insistent about seeing our goals through in this coalition. My take is that the centrist, market-friendly forces have driven policy for the Democrats largely over the last 30-40 years and the left has acquiesced because of the premise that it was necessary to keep the fascist, authoritarian, "unleash the total market forces and dismantle the welfare state" of the right at bay, that it was the smart way to win power and avoid the worst possible outcomes. We didn't get alot of what we wanted, but at least we could hold offices and power and prevent really bad outcomes.

But here are we in 2017 with total GOP control over the government and no signs of being able to beat any of that back with centrists guiding the party. I do not make any predictions about whether some pivot to the left will automatically be successful nor can I really know where the true preferences of the coalition lies. That seems to be the point of confusion, that you assume I do. I don't. I'm simply making a results oriented kind of conclusion, that 30-40 years of milquetoast centrist approach, from Carter to Clinton to Obama, has left the party basically in shambles and a new approach is required.
I'd like to add to this that the GOP currently has total control over the government at a time when demographics are shifting in a way that should give huge advantages to the dems. You can blame it on gerrymandering or voter suppression if you want, but it still shows that the current dem strategy is an incredible mess.
07-18-2017 , 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daca
tax it



so here's the long pitch:

everything in the us is a disaster. amtrak/the ny metro/all the other trains are all horrible. trying to build new transit in new york costs 5x as much as in paris or london, so mostly it just doesnt happen which is the opposite of what liberals want. it's so bad that there are americans in my twitter feed every other day complaining about something new catching fire.

it might in theory be possible to just reform those agencies and make them work better but there's no reason to think anyone has the actual ability to do it. so instead do what the uk did in the same situation: get someone private to run it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact..._1830-2015.png

you shouldnt give up (full) ownership, just outsource the running of the systems. and when people complain about privatisation of public goods and all the other boring cliches then tell them private companies are already running stuff like the stockholm metro, commuter trains and several intercity routes, the copenhagen metro and italian high speed rail. and are generally doing it well.

in the end running stuff well will make it far easier for liberals to get more of it and they should have ideas, other than just throwing more money at it, for how to make that happen.
I mean that's true, but NYC doesn't build the new subways, they contract out the work to someone.
07-18-2017 , 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daca
so here's the long pitch:

everything in the us is a disaster. amtrak/the ny metro/all the other trains are all horrible. trying to build new transit in new york costs 5x as much as in paris or london
Paris transit is world-class and state-owned and run, yeah?
07-18-2017 , 02:33 PM
China's rail systems are absolutely fantastic.
07-18-2017 , 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer
Paris transit is world-class and state-owned and run, yeah?
yes, most transit systems around the world are state or regionally run. and it's fine many places. the swiss state owned system is extremely well-regarded too. im not saying it cant be done

but it's working terribly in the us and a solution many places has been have to get private companies to run them (though rarely to own them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by zikzak
China's rail systems are absolutely fantastic.
mtr in hong kong is private and runs transit all over the world. much of transit japan is privately owned too
07-18-2017 , 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DVaut1
I'd formulate it in a different way: again, I don't know where the 'true' median Democratic voter is on the political spectrum. What I do know is that there's a critical mass of leftists in the party, or failing a coherent ideologue test, people who express preferences for leftist policies and outcomes in public opinion polls. Are they 20% of the party? A majority of the party? 75% of the party? I don't know.

But I remain confident that as the GOP realigned the parties in the 1960s and as Reagan solidified the party as a mix of hardcore market orthodox types plus southern white supremacists and other anxious white populists, what's been created on our side is a coalition between small-l liberals, moderates, centrists, and the left. As you described.
30-40 years of them voting for centrist, market-friendly forces should show where the median Democratic voter has been. An unwillingness to admit this is why many Bernie supporters thought the nomination was rigged.

Quote:
My point is that the left needs to be far more insistent about seeing our goals through in this coalition. My take is that the centrist, market-friendly forces have driven policy for the Democrats largely over the last 30-40 years and the left has acquiesced because of the premise that it was necessary to keep the fascist, authoritarian, "unleash the total market forces and dismantle the welfare state" of the right at bay, that it was the smart way to win power and avoid the worst possible outcomes. We didn't get alot of what we wanted, but at least we could hold offices and power and prevent really bad outcomes.
This is my disagreement. I think the reason the left has acquiesced is because they have less power in the Democratic Party. They raise less money, they elect fewer and weaker politicians, they don't have as much party influence, and so on. Saying that the left should be more insistent about their goals is meaningless without also saying how they should get the power to be more insistent. The left has been saying the Democratic Party should follow their priorities for as long as I can remember, they've just not had the power to make it happen (at least, not to your satisfaction; I still regard the ACA as a big victory for the left's priorities).

However, I don't think this is bad advice for the left. The left should press their own goals as much as they can. I was objecting more to the talk about "throwing in the towel" on the current coalition. I thought you might have been referring to something more drastic than trying to gain ascendancy in the current Democratic coalition.
07-18-2017 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
There should be a lot of hitchhiking imo.
Wouldn't you know I saw a hitchhiker today, so I had to pick him up. Grad student at Stanford. Not an Axe Murderer.
07-18-2017 , 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Wouldn't you know I saw a hitchhiker today, so I had to pick him up. Grad student at Stanford. Not an Axe Murderer.
Ass, grass or cash?
07-18-2017 , 04:26 PM
Last time I had the chance to pick up a hitch hiker he was so happy to get an immediate lift from the North to London he gave me a tab of acid.

That dates it.
07-18-2017 , 04:53 PM
07-18-2017 , 08:33 PM
handy list of alt-right scumbaggery

https://www.adl.org/education/resour...aming-the-hate
07-18-2017 , 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
Wouldn't you know I saw a hitchhiker today, so I had to pick him up. Grad student at Stanford. Not an Axe Murderer.
Hitching quite popular among backpackers travelling through Eastern Europe. Not so much in the rest of Europe.

Never did it myself because I can afford $5 for a bus ticket.

Sent from my HUAWEI CUN-L01 using Tapatalk
07-19-2017 , 11:16 AM
As is always true, your political opponents often accuse of never reading the other side. But I do often. And I couldn't help but notice this one cross my path:

http://www.theamericanconservative.c...progressivism/

Quote:
A friend once described conservatives as people who agreed about one important thing—that at some point in the past, something went terribly wrong. After that, conservatives splinter into untold numbers of camps, since they disagree ferociously about the date of the catastrophe.

Most conservatives today agree that America has taken a terrible turn—that something went wrong at some point in the past. Most believe that America was well-founded by the Framers of the Constitution, but that something bad happened that corrupted the sound basis of the Founding.
He then goes through all the right-wing bugaboos about how the country was ruined by Lincoln, or by Alinsky and the Progressives, or by the 1960s. Then says, nope, actually, it's been bad from Day 1:

Quote:
However, what this argument overlooks is that the greatest analysis of American democracy—Democracy in America, published in two volumes in 1835 and 1840, a full half-century before the flowering of Progressivism—already perceived the seeds of Progressivism’s major tenets already embedded in the basic features and attributes of liberal democracy as established at the Founding. Of particular note, while the major figures of Progressivism would directly attack classical liberalism, Tocqueville discerned that Progressivism arose not in spite of the classical liberal tradition, but because of its main emphasis upon, and cultivation of, individualism.
Quote:
However, Tocqueville’s analysis presents a discomfiting fact—that the basic inclinations toward progressivism were there at the creation. As Nisbet recognized, “the real conflict in modern political history has not been, as is so often stated, between the State and individual, but between the State and social group.” Conservatives should eschew the “false antipathy” in their assertion that salvation is to be found in individualism; rather, what is needed is a renewed defense of the institutions and memberships aside from, and distinctly placed, to that of the State—family, community, local markets, Church. Not because these constitute “lifestyle choices,” but because they are the true sources of human liberty—liberty through reforging the chains that democracy shatters in the pursuit of liberation in the name of individual autonomy, culminating with the rise of the modern, Progressive State to which we finally sacrifice our individuality.
Glib translation of the The American Conservative: come to think of it, the American Experiment was a terrible ****ing idea, this country sucks, democracy is terrible, and we sowed the seeds for our destruction with the founding.

I don't mind this at all, it's basically what right-wingers claim all the time, just in a half-assed incoherent way as they fetishize the Founders and rally around the flag: that democracy is terrible, interconnections are a bad idea, individualism is tyranny. The left certainly has their critiques of the state, of the founding, of the assumptions underlying the creation of the country. But I always appreciate when the American Exceptionalism and MAGA crowd let their guard down and acknowledge that small-l liberal democracy is incompatible with their world view and upon reflection something approximating 16th century feudal European society ("family, community, local markets, Church") was actually the best form of governance and social organization and that the chains of democracy are shattering them.

Liberals and the left would do well to remember these takes when prattling on about norms and democracy and how sacrosanct voting is, that underlying tons of real right-winger hearts and minds is actually the dream of returning back to what can only be described as fuedalism.

Last edited by DVaut1; 07-19-2017 at 11:23 AM.

      
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