Gamblor,

You know I was supporting you on that point, right? The US took over Puerto Rico in 1898 and we still haven't really given them full citizenship.

re AsianNit: Yeah, I didn't read the post before it.

I know I know, I was just adding colour to the point.

Also, we've been occupying Germany and Japan since WWII.

Had no option but to charge him for beating the American citizen because it was all caught on camera.

What about the killers of the two kids from a few months ago? Charged yet or still investigating?

Constitution of the Republic of Ireland:
It is defined in Ireland's constitution that the laws are in consideration of the obligation to acknowledge Jesus blah blah blah. That's much more religious language than appears in the Israeli Basic Laws - that is to say there is zero religious language in the Basic Laws of Israel, other than guaranteeing the freedom to choose religion.

So yes, Ireland is a religiously-founded state that still has religion as the basic foundation of lawmaking. That's according to your constitution. Sweet religious ethnocracy there bud.

No no. That's apartheid. American soldiers are all over Germany, so they clearly control Germany. But Germans aren't US citizens. Apartheid.

...

In this thread, I often forget that I'm a dove.

Who would have a better shot at finding common ground? Hamas and the Israeli Government? or opposing 2p2 Politics posters?

Every day is still a school day.

Does Israel have a solution for the Palestinian question?

Without a doubt the former. Non-Israeli posters for and against are basically meme-repeaters, who haven't a clue the political dynamics and relative importance of issues. Hell, they can't even figure out what the issues are. It's just accusations.

When your position is a function of your morality, how can you change it? It would be admitting your moral compass is off.

People involved - including myself, Yuv, Hadis, and I'm beginning to suspect from his language that "poker is good for you" might be closer to this conflict than he lets on - have actual costs and benefits, which means decisions can be more pragmatic.

Nope. The idea that you think there is a Palestinian question is scary. In the 20th century, they were asking about the Jewish Question. They aren't anymore.

As long as the terror organizations (Hamas, Jihad Islami, Brigades of Al Aqsa), control the Palestinain areas, security will be more important than negotiations. When Abu Mazen crushes the terror groups there will be peace. But he can't, because his own party won't let him.

I'm no memebot.

Not Sunday though, praise be to Jesus!

And what do you expect is the appropriate response to a state who doesn't want to negotiate and offer a solution to the people they took advantage of, who continue to live in a land desired by an occupying power?

basically.

With the utmost respect, how much do you think I can understand about American life, American history, American values, and the American political climate, without having grown up and having strong connections to the US?

I demand the USA do A, B, C because I watched CNN and some European academic wrote a paper on a tiny detail of US government. And some other countries want you to do it.

For once I'm going to have to side with the governments.

Which is why I'm not real entrenched in or dogmatic about any specific position/solution.

Lol. No. Just no. The hate and war on Israel is not limited to Palestinian Arabs and began long before there was an occupation or even an Israel. To suggest that the "response" is based on occupation is absurd - unless by "occupation" you mean the existence of Jews in Eretz Israel.

Israel has shown its ability to make peace with enemies, to build a stable democracy, to function in the international community.

The entire Arab world, including the Palestinians, has been in flames for centuries and is still aflame today.

Now that the truth of Hamas executing Fateh members is coming out, and that Hamas is already rebuilding tunnels, there's nothing that can be done. Wait until someone takes stable control, then talk to them. Anything else would be a disaster.

So the various heads of state, think tanks pundits and other bright, interested observers can have no real grasp and understanding of the Israel/Palestinian conflict and their input must be greatly discounted? That doesn't seem right.

As for the other question I think that I and DM can find common ground a lot more easily than Hamas and the Israeli government.

In my heart, I'm a dove. Here in reality, I know that there's nothing you can do.

To try to manipulate Palestinian public opinion in favour of Israel by taking tangible political moves, is the same mistake the Americans made when they said "if we just overthrow Saddam, the Iraqis will embrace liberal democracy!"

Maybe as far as negotiating with Hamas (maybe not), but that nothing can be done is not even the Israeli government's position.

Some people may call these tokens or photo ops, but sending trucks of aid into Gaza during the conflict and setting up field hospitals to treat Gazans is positive. Whatever Israel did to protect Gazan civilians, that's positive. Pulling settlers out of Gaza was positive. Restricting "legal" settlements and removing "illegal" settlements in the WB is positive.

Opponents shouldn't shout that down as meaningless, but also supporters shouldn't just say 'look at all we do' as if it's necessarily true that doing more would be bad or impossible.

Many things can be done by Israel to encourage Palestinians to support more moderate leaders. Or many things can be done to drive them even more to support radical ones.

Does Jordan, which was the Arab nation created in the "Palestinian" land when Israel was created? Or was Jordan's revocation of citizenship for Palestinians in the West Bank -- including Palestinians who were born in territory controlled by Jordan -- when Jordan finally gave up trying to get back land it had misappropriated and lost when it attacked Israel part of the great solution?

Why is it Israel's responsibility to solve the "Palestinian question"? Why isn't it Jordan's? Or any other Arab nation? Or the world, since based on the way you view history, the world caused this problem when it created the State of Israel?

Very few Americans ever said that and most that did didn't believe it. It really wasn't even presented by war supporters as a significant reason for overthrowing Saddam.

The reasons presented for the war was that supporters said over and over and over that ISIL, er I mean Saddam, was a credible threat the US security.

(In case you didn't know, not being in America, we're just now starting to hear the drum beat of ISIL being a threat to our security.)

Don't let U.N. resolutions dissuade you. Ignore the EU boycott, official diplomatic repudiations from many nations or grass roots movements of people around the world to isolate Israel- all in response to the atrocities Israel has committed. Forget about condemning legal opinions from international jurists. Never mind the constant Israeli war mongering, including extra judicial assassinations and threats of military attack. Don't read the leaked documents on The Intercept that show that, internally, the U.S. views Israel as one of the gravest threats to peace going. Look the other way when Israel sells weapons and instruments of oppression, like gates, checkpoints, surveillance, and crowd control measures to human rights violators.

In other words, if you just ignore every relevant fact, then yeah, Israel can be viewed as functioning in the international community instead of the rogue state (on the verge of becoming a pariah state) that it actually is.