They knew because they later asked him to infiltrate the Aryan Nations for him. He was known to have affiliations with them, but there was never any evidence that he actually belonged to the organization. The FBI was aware of this when they asked him to modify weapons.

It doesn't "explain" that because that wasn't the point of the damn analogy.

It would be much easier to trump up charges against people like this to start out than to try and do so with an established group. In fact, the reactionary fear mongering caused by these little events would certainly help the PR campaign when it came time to get public support to go after the big fish.

Look, if you want, you can switch out "PR campaign against militia groups" and replace it with "PR campaign against right-wing Christian groups" if you'd like.

That would be awesome if I said "the fed always trumps up charges on people," but I didn't so I don't know wtf you are trying to get at here.

Classic voodoo whereby the witchdoctor makes a puppet of his enemy, attacks the puppet, enemy goes down.

You said:

The undercover agent met Weaver at the Aryan Nation World Congress. They definitely thought he was part of the group. You make it sounds like they found some random bozo in the woods, stuck him with a few sawed offs, and told him to go pretend to be a Nazi to infiltrate the group. That's not what happened at all. Weaver traveled in these circles, was a former Green Beret, had run for political office, and enjoyed some local notoriety in what at the time was a fast growing Aryan Nation movement.

So the story goes (when people sympathetic to Weaver tell it), it was when Weaver informed the Aryan Nation that the FBI was sniffing around with informants that he then became the target of "an attack" from the Feds.

The point of this little tangent is that the FBI doesn't just choose randos to target for trumped up charges. And they don't chose random crackpots with no influence. Which is what the whole "Hutatree are subject to Feds trumping up charges against them, just like Weaver!" analogy doesn't make sense. Weaver was a dude with some influence who was associated with a a group the Feds cared a lot about.

The Hutaree are some crazies who nobody in the militia movement liked anyway.

Go back and read what I linked to. "Reactionary fear mongering"? Who's supposed to be made afraid by this, again? The other militias who didn't like the Hutaree, intentionally weren't associated with them because of the perception that they were crazy, and assisted the feds in rounding them up?

The narrative that this is supposed to temper the growth of the right wing militia movement or the Christian militia movement when no one in the militia movement counted the Hutaree as one of their own and were in fact happy to help the FBI round these guys up is just illogical. It makes positively no sense. This should be a relative uncontroversial point anywhere but 2p2 Politics, but here we are anyway.

I knew Pokemon was a dangerous cult.

My fault, sry for derail sirs.
I don't think the rednecks were "attacked."

FYP

you know the answer to this, it is the same as the fixation on one or two off semi racist statements taken out of context. By fixating on the anomalies they can justify a whole host of judgments and "remedies" based on those judgments. In other words it validates their world view of "everyone but me is wrong and likely evil".

This explains the FBI's behavior? Really? The FBI is trying to validate a world view to prove everyone but them wrong?

The FBI knew the Hutaree were such a threat to the system that they framed them for being threats to the system ldo

Yes, meaning by the time the FBI asked him to infiltrate the group or be charged with illegally modifying weapons, they knew he wasn't a member of the group.



No, you are trying to make it sound like that is what I am saying, but I am not.

It is more like: Undercover agent met Weaver at World Congress event, FBI believed he was a member, FBI finds out he is not a member, FBI trumps up bogus weapons charges against him, FBI tries to get Weaver to infiltrate Aryan Nations to be an informant for them or face weapons charges. At the time of the Ruby Ridge incident, the FBI knew he was not a member. Now if you think I meant something else then you misunderstood me.

I really love how you put "an attack" in quotes like it wasn't really an attack but something else. I don't really know how you could call it anything other than an attack.

Neblis put it well. By fixating on one or two anomalies they can justify (to the public) a whole host of "solutions." It is in this same manner that things like the PATRIOT act came to be.

The concern is that they will use this as a precedent as to why the government needs to pass stronger anti-gun legislation and stop militias because "zomg they might spawn another one of these kinds of groups or another Tim McVeigh."

The media is already using this event to shout about a concern for the "growing number of militias" and things of that nature. Axelrod even tried to implicate the tea party as a breeding ground for such things.

It isn't an uncommon political tactic: Demonize/accuse group A of being dangerous, infer group B is categorically similar in some respect, use action taken against group A as precedent to take action/create legislation against group B.

Neblis's point frankly makes no sense and neither does yours. Why didn't they trump up charges again people who are *actually* welcome in the militia movement instead of the outcasts? The FBI's prime targets are 9 clowns who no one liked or trusted, and were pretty much one family. Think about this for a bit. The media and federal government are so complicit in this ruse, according to you guys, that they're all making it very clear how much help they had from the other militias and how these guys were too crazy for the people who normally spend their time in camo in the woods shooting up stuff and training for battles? THIS MAKES NO SENSE.

Because it is much easier to demonize the crazies.

So, the FBI, in all their dastardly ways, schemed up some fantasy charges against the Hutaree folks, who are so crazy that the FBI chose them for their Demonize The Militias plot, due to Hutaree's notorious craziness. But the Hutaree are not so crazy that we can't believe they really planned to shoot some cops then blow up the resulting funeral, ergo the Feds are engaged in another frame up, intended to demonize the crazies, who are the easy targets, not those sane militias that have actual followings outside of 9 people who the FBI would have a hard time framing?

Did I capture that correctly?

Didn't say this.

Please read what is written instead of what you want it to say.

Okay, so let's start at the top.

The FBI:

- is probably framing Hutaree to make the militias look crazy because
- the Hutaree are easy targets because they're actually crazy
- but not so crazy that we can tend to believe the FBI's version of events, ie, they planned on shooting a cop then blowing up the funeral

Yes? Please correct any misrepresentations of your argument.

Except you keep insisting that I am saying they probably are framing them. Please, where have I ever said this?

Here?:

If I misinterpreted the above and you agree with me that the FBI probably isn't framing the Hutaree and that the FBI's version of events is most likely, because the Hutaree are far from the "prime target" for this kind of thing (in fact they're probably the worst target for that kind of propaganda, outside of completely fictional ******s who would somehow be even dumber and crazier than the Hutaree), and you agree that the Hutaree planned to get violent, then cool. I'll scratch my head and wonder what all your posts were about, but alright, wonderful, we agree.

Heard one of the suspects brother in an interview saying he was a normal guy and had many friends that were police officers and that he was running for office next year. No one liked or trusted??? How do you know that, oh, you don't, you implied it. Grandstanders usually do. (not to point fingers oc)

http://www.toledoonthemove.com/news/...aspx?id=439185

http://detnews.com/article/20100329/...-charged-today

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...00ccwD9ER571O0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHQGw9LLhoI

^ Michigan Volunteer Militia dude says Hutaree is a cult and are not like them.

http://michiganmessenger.com/36224/c...utaree-arrests

^ GRANDSTANDING LDO

Just to recap:

Fringe Michigan militia whackos: Hutaree are whacko, they're crazy, agitating for Civil War, and are a little too radical and wreckless, even for us

2p2 Politics forum: Hutaree was probably framed by the FBI

In impressive fashion, the 2p2 Politics forum is trying to out-nutball and create even more outlandish conspiracy theories than whacky militia types. HIGH FIVES ALL AROUND

Where in that post did I mention that the FBI was probably making things up?

I thought "I repeat, I am not saying I believe that is what is going on, just that it isn't outside the realm of possibility" was pretty clear but I guess not. Let me be more clear: I don't personally believe that these charges are made up. But I will say that I would not be surprised if this whole event isn't used as some sort of precedent to crack down on militia groups under the guise of 'domestic terrorism.' I really hope I'm wrong about that, but given the media frenzy over the whole deal and some of the rhetoric coming from the White House, I'm not too optimistic.

All my posts started out as a simple reply to a 'why' question you posed. I offered a possible (do not read as probable) reason. Then I think you took it as some sort of argument for conspiracy or something like that and it kinda got derailed into a discussion of Weaver.

Yes, grandstanding, what have you linked, other militias in the area didn't hang out with them and David Stone was a loner. Just say, yeah, I assumed that ("No one liked or trusted"), and we don't really know that... and move on. You will frustrate yourself if you try to prove your point in the face of an obvious unknown.

1. Hutaree are whacko, too radical and wreckless and violent... agreed.

2. Why the fu** do you keep typing that? Who said that?

3. You have assumed #3, you have just imagined that, great fail bro. I have created no theory, I have not created outlandish conspiracy, Jesus man, get your head on straight.

FWIW I was talking about the media and posters ITT etc fixating on these types to justify demonizing "rightwing nutters". But Montius does have a reasonable point.