He specifically said it was worth it to kill as many civilians as it takes in order to kill all of Hamas which would entail essentially destroying all of Gaza (which he also advocated).

Let's move on from this. It's not helpful in any context and serves no purpose in rational discussion.

Sorry dude, can't agree with this. Israel is not trying to commit genocide against the Palestinians, although as just saw, some people would like for them to.

Palestinian casualties of war
by my count, going by the midpoint between estimates, about 15,000 caused by Israel since 1948 (64 years). (In the meantime, it appears from that list that more Palestinians have been killed by other Palestinians, the Lebanese and the Jordanian armies than by Israel, but that's neither here nor there).

Total Palestinian population: about 11,000,000. Only 733 years to go and they'll be gone forever!

D'oh.

God damn it .

I give up. All those tanks and planes and nuclear bombs, and they're growing at the 10th fastest rate in the world. And living longer than virtually every single other Middle Eastern country!

But wait! Israel is strangling them economically! Right?

God ****ing damn it.

How are more people in Israel below the poverty line than the West Bank? And who are these 45/150 countries with a higher poverty rate than Gaza? South Africa? Mexico? Where are these hellholes?

this is the best you can do with this cretinous troll?

I guess there would be one state with Jewish and Palestinian Arab citizens.

Yes, yes they are.

Restrictions imposed by the Israeli occupation have had a significant impact on trade and the economy in the Palestinian Territories. A report released by the UN in September 2012 stated that the Palestinian economy "has lost access to 40 percent of the West Bank, 82 percent of its groundwater and more than two-thirds of its grazing land" due to the occupation and settlement construction. A report by Israeli human rights organization B'tselem stated that the West Bank Barrier, which runs through East Jerusalem and the West Bank was responsible for crippling agriculture and businesses while isolating one Palestinian community from another.

The West Bank and Gaza economies have become heavily reliant on foreign aid which stood at 1.8 billion in 2008. Approximately 30% of the GDP, or US$487 per Palestinian per year is aid. Foreign aid provides essential services for nearly half of the Palestinian people, and allows the Palestinian Authority to operate and pay its estimated 140,000 employees.

In April 2011, Salam Fayyad met with Western donors in Brussels and requested $5 billion in aid.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20217449

Jewish settlements have rapidly expanded in Area C in the two decades since the Oslo Accords were signed. The World Bank warns that this restricts the fertile land and water available to Palestinians.

In Hebron, there is also an Israeli military presence to protect about 500 settlers who live inside the city. A survey by Israeli human rights groups in 2007 found that in the area they occupy over 1,800 businesses and warehouses had closed since the start of the second Palestinian intifada, or uprising. This was due to movement restrictions and some military order.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19911902

Sorry but bolded is your own assertion and pretty far from the actual reality of the situation and not to mention is nowhere close to what mpethy advocated.

Fine by me. You probably owe him an apology, though.

We are not talking about Black September which lasted less than a year, we are talking about unlawful occupation and the suppression of a race for over 6 decades.

Of course people disagree with their governments on a range of issues but your confidence regarding their disagreement of the treatment of the Palestinians is wholly misplaced.

"Haaretz poll: More than 90 percent of Israeli Jews support Gaza war"


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.478903

I think I see the problem now. We've all been using terms that we don't think mean what the other side thinks the terms mean. It all makes sense now. Here is the definition of terrorist from Gamblor's dictionary, The Imperial Heritage Dictionary, Extra Frothy edition:

terrorist [tar-er-ist]
noun
1. A person, usually a member of a group, who has the belligerency to challenge a superior military power, usually the U.S. or allies of the U.S., in defense of his groups right to exist

2. Any person who aids or shows solidarity with groups in existential conflict with a reigning global hegemony (from the Bush et. al "You are either with us or against us")

That's a surprise to you? What did you expect? What other population in the same circumstance would have a different result?

Not every, single thing that you think is important is actually important. You can let the obvious go.

I didn't think it would be that high. I guess Israeli's can't plead ignorance like some Americans can about their countries war crimes. The Israeli's are very close to the situation and actually know and understand what is going on. There are obviously still a large number of Americans, who are completely ignorant to the world outside of America. Just makes me really, really sad that over 90% of Jews would support the Gaza war, given their own history of persecution

Guess it's kinda like the kid who was bullied at school, who is all grown up now and has big brother arming it to the teeth. Now they are the aggressor.

That's the impression I get as well.

I'm not 100% sold on this. Obviously we will never know, as there will never be a situation like the current conflict again ( or at least I hope there won't be ).

WHAT?

I know there has been plenty of land disputes, wars, religious conflicts etc etc in the past ( and a lot still going on now ). But something like this, given the circumstances and location, and also the fact it is spanning decades with no sign of respite, makes it pretty unique in my books.

This just makes me sad

http://972mag.com/visualizing-occupa...-regime/58973/

Complete discrimination.

* 90% of detained Palestinian minors over 12 will face prison.
* 6.5% of detained Israeli minors over 14 will face prison.

So ****ing wrong. They're kids for ****s sake.

fwiw (my 2 cents as i'm lurking this hard), almost half of my family is Jewish and when I hear them talking at a shabbat dinner about the conflict (I make sure to stay well out of the way or i'm sure i'd be disowned if i mentioned anything negative about Israel) they really sound exactly the same and fanatical and religiously motivated as the IJ lunatics.

The Israeli/Palestinian 'war' is not much of a war as far as wars go.

Try the Congo's war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

By 2008, the war and its aftermath had killed 5.4 million people, mostly from disease and starvation,[7] making the Second Congo War the deadliest conflict worldwide since World War II.[8] Millions more were displaced from their homes or sought asylum in neighboring countries.[9]

Rwandan Genocide, Darfur, Sri Lanka, former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, jfc, and it's the Israelis/Palestinians that grabs worldwide attention. It seems like there are ppl itt that can name the date/place of every rock thrown. And why? It's bec it's like a sport! People know the teams and the players and the results are published in the newspapers. Everybody has an opinion, each side has their 'team', there's religion involved, it's in our face.

Meanwhile real war gets tsk tsk'd.

Syria is in the news today for reportedly loading up bombs w/ Sarin. I hope that's not true but what is true is that they're hard at it there. Not a post, not a note, not a nothing on here. And why? Bec nobody can do a damn thing about it, that's why. But ISRAEL, that we can do something about, dammit!

Unique? I want to vomit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy

Take your 'false analogy' and stick it, imo.

btw, do you're Jewish relatives advocate shooting civilians? Why not man up and confront them.

Because so much of their belief of the situation comes out of their faith that insists that the land is theirs because of sacred text and Zionism, and when arguments come out of faith there is never anything to debate, so I just leave them be to prevent family tension and having half the family dislike me for my views, its -EV for me to intervene lol.

Like, my cousin is 'studying Judaism' in Israel right now and when I talked to her on the phone regarding the situation two weeks ago and asked if she felt safe and whatnot she tells me, 'yeah its safe, all houses have bomb shelters! (btw a house built to code needs a bomb shelter) Like the other day they fired a rocket and the alarm went off then we found it ended up hitting their own territory, like that was an act of God! See!'.. I'm just like okay... be safe cous...

I take it that they don't advocate shooting civilians. Their position is religion based. I happen not to like that position bec it stands in the way of a peace deal. There are ways to contradict ppl like that on practical/pragmatic grounds but I understand why you don't want to.

That fellow upthread inferred that this conflict is THE WORST THING EVER AND WE WILL NEVER SEE IT'S LIKE AGAIN!, oh, nooeeeesssss. So I showed him much worse. And it'll happen again just like it's always happened.

btw, that edit note says a lot about your frame of reference.

well why else does the US spend more on Israel's 'defence' than Israel itself? (more of a serious question actually i cant imagine why else other than the obvious being gaining a foothold in mid-east warfare in general)

Why doesn't that logic work for the Palestinians ? What population in their circumstances would act differently ? That's far more obvious.

Fwiw we in Britain did not want our government to kill hundreds and thousands of Irish Catholic men, women and children when we were being bombed by the IRA and we were ashamed when we heard about illegal killings by our forces in incidents such as "Bloody Sunday". There was a fair amount of debate about how Irish Catholics were being treated unfairly in Northern Ireland and the issues were addressed.

Once upon a time the U.S. and the Soviet Union vied for influence in the Mid-East. At that time Israel was the U.S.'s trustworthy ally in the region w/, iirc, Turkey being a close second. We can put in 'inertia', 'still allies', and other 'yada, yada' but you're also right: Israel has a very strong lobby bec American Jews VOTE. Then there are the fundamentalist Christians that need Israel for The Rapture or something like that which I'm not sure why Israel embraces that or if they even do bec it means they'd be wiped out, blah, blah, blah,.......

But nm all of that bec at this point, Israel pretty much demonstrating that they're not serious about a peace deal, I'd end U.S. financial support.

There are obviously some other bad things going on in the world at the moment, no doubt. But the reason the media and people have such an interest in this one is obvious, it's because it is a unique situation. Most people are of the opinion that the Congo war means nothing, because it is just some guys killing each other in some place far away that has no impact on the world stage, or no direct impact on them. The world/western media doesn't care, so nor do most people. I don't think that's right personally and I have very strong feelings about what has happened in Congo, Yugoslavia etc but most people don't know enough, or don't care enough.

The conflict involving Israel is unique in the fact that it involves West v East in the most volatile region in the world and the most important region in the world to the US. The US is a declining empire and Israel is so important to the USA's long term future that they will do anything to ensure its prosperity. The war in the middle east is going to shape the world for generations to come.

Did I say that logic doesn't work for the Palestinians? I don't recall having said that buy maybe I'm wrong and you'll find where I did. I am not trying to be snarky by saying that it's just that I don't think that I did but might have and if I did I take it back.

In these threads I've repeatedly stated that if the Palestinians had had a Gandhi we wouldn't be where we are today. The religious zealots have gained too much influence in Israel right now for it to work today but I'm pretty sure that the Israelis of 30+ years ago would've never been able to resist that approach.

However, I don't think that Arabs are 'allowed' culturally to take that approach. They have to get their pride back. Which is why I've also observed that if Israel could manage to 'lose' a war there could be progress in a peace deal.

So here I am, a secular Jew, and stuck. Don't like Israeli policy, think the Palestinians are going about advancing their cause in the worst possible way.

And I get to type into a reply box like that's ever going to do any good.