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02-15-2012 , 01:56 PM
no its not there is no constitutional right to vote in the united states.


"In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the [U.S. Supreme] Court ... affirmed the district court's interpretation that our Constitution 'does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.' And it's state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is 'qualified.'

As a result, voting is not a right, but a privilege granted or withheld at the discretion of local and state governments.... the U.S. is one of just 11 nations among 120 or so constitutional democracies that fail to guarantee a right to vote in their constitutions."
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02-15-2012 , 01:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leoslayer
no its not there is no constitutional right to vote in the united states.
02-15-2012 , 02:01 PM
leo I recommend you find a new crackpot blog to read
02-15-2012 , 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leoslayer
no its not there is no constitutional right to vote in the united states.


"In its 2000 ruling, Alexander v Mineta, the [U.S. Supreme] Court ... affirmed the district court's interpretation that our Constitution 'does not protect the right of all citizens to vote, but rather the right of all qualified citizens to vote.' And it's state legislatures that wield the power to decide who is 'qualified.'

As a result, voting is not a right, but a privilege granted or withheld at the discretion of local and state governments.... the U.S. is one of just 11 nations among 120 or so constitutional democracies that fail to guarantee a right to vote in their constitutions."
This is a good example of why Alexander Hamilton objected to the creation of the Bill of Rights in Federalist No. 84:

Quote:
"Here, in strictness, the people surrender nothing, and as they retain everything, they have no need of particular reservations." Critics pointed out that earlier political documents had protected specific rights, but Hamilton argued that the Constitution was inherently different:

"Bills of rights are in their origin, stipulations between kings and their subjects, abridgments of prerogative in favor of privilege, reservations of rights not surrendered to the prince. Such was "Magna Charta", obtained by the Barons, swords in hand, from King John."

Finally, Hamilton expressed the fear that protecting specific rights might imply that any unmentioned rights would not be protected:

"I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and in the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?"
It looks like Hamilton was more visionary than his contemporaries gave him credit for. If it's not specifically mentioned in the Constitution, sure enough some dumbass (not you leo, I mean in general) is eventually going to come along and point out this fact and say, "Hey! It's not in the Constitution so it's not protected arglebargle!" The same goes for the "right to privacy," fwiw.

My Con Law professor heavily criticized this decision in class one day, saying that it completely ignores the 9th Amendment and is one of the worst decisions of the Rehnquist court.
02-15-2012 , 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrJr
I guess I misread. What level of verification do you feel is acceptable to prove you are who you say you are?
Until 2004, every time I voted I showed up at my designated polling place and gave them my name and address. They looked me up in their book, had me sign, and handed me a ballot. It worked pretty well as far as I could tell. If someone had shown up before me and pretended to be me and voted for me (it never happened) then we would obviously have a problem and an investigation would be warranted.
02-15-2012 , 02:20 PM
yes ash but there are cases of overlap where somebody could vote as a dead person. heck we still get mail and bills for my grandmother and she has been dead for over 2 years. it would not slow down the process any.
02-15-2012 , 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashington
Until 2004, every time I voted I showed up at my designated polling place and gave them my name and address. They looked me up in their book, had me sign, and handed me a ballot. It worked pretty well as far as I could tell. If someone had shown up before me and pretended to be me and voted for me (it never happened) then we would obviously have a problem and an investigation would be warranted.
So in answer to my question, you feel providing your name and address is an acceptable means of proving you are who you say you are, right?

This is no different than the satirical answer I gave from above with the exception of the person's address, which is easily obtainable. I'm just surprised you feel your position doesn't fall in my statement of "extremely little to no verification."
02-15-2012 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrJr
So in answer to my question, you feel providing your name and address is an acceptable means of proving you are who you say you are, right?

This is no different than the satirical answer I gave from above with the exception of the person's address, which is easily obtainable. I'm just surprised you feel your position doesn't fall in my statement of "extremely little to no verification."
Um, the verification part comes at the time I am issued a voter registration card.

Do you honestly think that there are roving gangs of vote-stealers out there hiding in the bushes waiting for the polls to open so they can run in and vote as someone else? If so, please provide evidence of this. I have already asked for someone to provide specific examples of voter fraud that would have been prevented by picture ID, can you provide any?
02-15-2012 , 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leoslayer
yes ash but there are cases of overlap where somebody could vote as a dead person. heck we still get mail and bills for my grandmother and she has been dead for over 2 years. it would not slow down the process any.
K so there are folks out there combing the obituaries in search of people they can pretend to be when the next election rolls around?

Also, if dead people are still on the voter rolls then that is a problem with the supervisor of elections, not the general public.

This is a solution in search of a problem, nothing more.
02-15-2012 , 02:33 PM
yes ash you say voter reg card. but in nc we dont have to have our voter card to vote. there is not a whole lot of verification going on when you register.
02-15-2012 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashington
Um, the verification part comes at the time I am issued a voter registration card.

Do you honestly think that there are roving gangs of vote-stealers out there hiding in the bushes waiting for the polls to open so they can run in and vote as someone else? If so, please provide evidence of this. I have already asked for someone to provide specific examples of voter fraud that would have been prevented by picture ID, can you provide any?
Do you lock your door when you leave your house? Why would you if it had never been robbed before now?
02-15-2012 , 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrJr
Do you lock your door when you leave your house? Why would you if it had never been robbed before now?
Because I have seen evidence of others being robbed.

Last edited by Namath12; 02-15-2012 at 02:50 PM.
02-15-2012 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leoslayer
yes ash you say voter reg card. but in nc we dont have to have our voter card to vote. there is not a whole lot of verification going on when you register.
We don't have to have it here in FL either. I wasn't even asked for mine, just my picture ID.
02-15-2012 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashington
Until 2004, every time I voted I showed up at my designated polling place and gave them my name and address. They looked me up in their book, had me sign, and handed me a ballot. It worked pretty well as far as I could tell. If someone had shown up before me and pretended to be me and voted for me (it never happened) then we would obviously have a problem and an investigation would be warranted.
Thats not how it is done though. You get as many non-people, dead people ect. on the registration rolls, and then you can backfill the votes you need.
It's where organization really counts.

I have always lived in northwest IN. Gary, Hammond, East Chicago are historically really bad with fraud. Gary always is the last place in the state to report results. They come up with some unbeleivable turnout % when they need too.

Bob Beckel told a story on the five about how a Gary mayor produced enough votes for his guy, after the rest of the state reported and the number of needed votes was determined.

I can see how some of you don't think that voter fraud is an issue if you live somewhere where fraud doesn't happen much, if at all. If you happened to live somewhere where voter fraud is the standard, your opinion might change.
02-15-2012 , 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashington
We don't have to have it here in FL either. I wasn't even asked for mine, just my picture ID.
well here we dont have to show anything ever just tell them who you are and your address.

can you not see how that could be an issue?
02-15-2012 , 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leoslayer
well here we dont have to show anything ever just tell them who you are and your address.

can you not see how that could be an issue?
Are you asking me whether it's possible for someone to a) find out my full legal name, b) find out where I live, c) find out what my polling place is and then d) show up at the polls (hopefully BEFORE I get there) and then vote in my stead? My answer to that question would be Yes.

If you are asking me if I am concerned that someone would risk prison time and to have a permanent felony on their criminal record just to do this, I would have to say No.
02-15-2012 , 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashington
Because I have seen evidence of others being robbed.
Wait -- are you saying there hasn't been any voter fraud up to this point?
02-15-2012 , 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leoslayer
how is he going to go anywhere? how is he going to go vote? not hard to get an id. and he can get birth cert from the health dept. but he can also show up with a family bible. its not that hard to go to the dmv and get an id.
JFC read the thread. Process something. Just once.

He can walk to the voting booth where they have a name on his list and they check him off. Everything else you're talking about is much much harder for someone like this.
02-15-2012 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrJr
Wait -- are you saying there hasn't been any voter fraud up to this point?
Well, we can look in the local paper for documented cases of burglaries. We also know that there have been extensive investigations to look for vote fraud. They came up with fewer than 10 cases nationally over the span of a decade. That is a trivial and acceptable amount of cases compared to the thousands or tens of thousands who would not be able to vote due to ID laws.
02-15-2012 , 03:30 PM
As is common in these kinds of threads - conservatives getting utterly destroyed by logic, empirical evidence and history - but nonetheless plowing ahead completely undeterred.

In before "Getting an ID is a snap, I got one. I don't see what the big deal is."

And the cycle of life continues.

Last edited by suzzer99; 02-15-2012 at 03:39 PM.
02-15-2012 , 03:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JrJr
Wait -- are you saying there hasn't been any voter fraud up to this point?
Well, the Bush administration's investigation uncovered 9 whole acts.

Do you have a cite to it occurring? Bob Beckel reading chain emails on Fox News doesn't count.
02-15-2012 , 03:39 PM
thousands or tens of thousands who would not be able to vote due to ID laws

^^^^^^^^^^ that is just ridiculous. i dont know why you think its so hard to get an id.
your rural alabama argument was obsurd.
02-15-2012 , 03:40 PM
Republicans spending millions through action committees to stop 9 cases of fraud over a decade. They must be some dumb bunnies, since we know this isn't going to be hard for anyone to get an ID.
02-15-2012 , 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by leoslayer
thousands or tens of thousands who would not be able to vote due to ID laws

^^^^^^^^^^ that is just ridiculous. i dont know why you think its so hard to get an id.
your rural alabama argument was obsurd.
Read the thread, until then I'm done with you. You obviously aren't even trying.

Quote:
Dorothy Cooper is 96 but she can remember only one election when she's been eligible to vote but hasn't.

The retired domestic worker was born in a small North Georgia town before women had the right to vote. She began casting ballots in her 20s after moving to Chattanooga for work. She missed voting for John F. Kennedy in 1960 because a move to Nashville prevented her from registering in time.

So when she learned last month at a community meeting that under a new state law she'd need a photo ID to vote next year, she talked with a volunteer about how to get to a state Driver Service Center to get her free ID. But when she got there Monday with an envelope full of documents, a clerk denied her request.

That morning, Cooper slipped a rent receipt, a copy of her lease, her voter registration card and her birth certificate into a Manila envelope. Typewritten on the birth certificate was her maiden name, Dorothy Alexander.

"But I didn't have my marriage certificate," Cooper said Tuesday afternoon, and that was the reason the clerk said she was denied a free voter ID at the Cherokee Boulevard Driver Service Center.
Not everyone is a middle class white boy from the suburbs. Not everyone lives like you. Maybe try traveling the country a bit.
02-15-2012 , 03:44 PM
It's pretty common for poor people in Peoria, Illinois where I used to live to not have photo IDs, especially since they mostly don't own cars.
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