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04-12-2012 , 07:17 PM

#226

Low Key

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different meanings of the phrase 'free market' itt?

04-12-2012 , 07:20 PM

#227

Trolly McTrollson

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Key

different meanings of the phrase 'free market' itt?

As long as any sort of government exists, we can explain away any failures of a free market system by vaguely invoking "crony capitalism". That's Libertarianism Logic 101.

04-12-2012 , 07:21 PM

#228

einbert

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Well it's true, if there is such a thing as a "free market" the US Health Care system is about the furthest thing from that idea.

04-12-2012 , 07:29 PM

#229

Low Key

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Trolly McTrollson

As long as any sort of government exists, we can explain away any failures of a free market system by vaguely invoking "crony capitalism". That's Libertarianism Logic 101.

so your position is the flip-side - no matter how involved in a market a government is, it's still a free market?

04-12-2012 , 08:11 PM

#230

dinopoker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Key

different meanings of the phrase 'free market' itt?

Well I'd love for anyone, libertarian or otherwise, to come on here and give a complete explanation as to how their wonderful 'free market' system would really work, because all the real-life evidence out there seems to indicate that it would be just as massive a failure as the US system is currently. But hey, maybe I'm missing something. I'd love to know what, though.

04-12-2012 , 08:25 PM

#231

suzzer99

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The libertarian position seems to be some vague combination of loosening doctor license requirements, letting anyone get any drug they want w/o a prescription, selling health insurance across state lines, and letting people die in the streets charities pick up the slack.

04-12-2012 , 08:30 PM

#232

TomCollins

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

I'm not even talking about the regulation of doctors. I'm simply talking about the insurance-job link we have and how everything is paid for. It's a terrible mix of corporatism, protectionism, and other flawed non-capitalistic systems.

But you do bring up good points that the health care system we have is regulated in ways that make it much less free than even other "free market" we have. There certainly are degrees of free markets in the US, and health care is about as unfree as it comes in the US, at least of anything that is actually legal.

04-12-2012 , 08:30 PM

#233

TomCollins

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

What makes you think the failures of the US system is due to a free market?

I'm also wondering what you consider to be the biggest failures of the US system.

04-13-2012 , 11:12 AM

#234

dinopoker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TomCollins

What makes you think the failures of the US system is due to a free market?

I'm also wondering what you consider to be the biggest failures of the US system.

1) Cost
2) Access
3) Quality

04-13-2012 , 11:14 AM

#235

suzzer99

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Well yeah those. But we kick ass at colon cancer!

04-13-2012 , 01:16 PM

#236

Effen

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

health insurance across state lines never caught on, too wordy. try 'portability'. but its super easily debunked so they don't really harp on it much except as part 4 of their plan and hope people don't think about it and think "hey they have 4 parts to their plan!"

for the record loosening doctor requirements probably isn't a bad idea, the **** people go through in residency is ****ing ******ed. sure i'd love a guy with 6 hours sleep the last 3 days stitching up my gaping wound wouldn't you?

and the drug thing is dumb, you should be allowed to buy whatever the **** you want.

04-13-2012 , 01:20 PM

#237

TomCollins

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

1) Cost
2) Access
3) Quality

Seems like 3 is pretty good in the US. 1 is pretty poor. 2 is fairly good, although has some gaps that could be filled.

Unless by #3 you mean we have too high quality. In which I would agree. We need more tiers- not everyone needs world class care for everything.

04-13-2012 , 01:35 PM

#238

dinopoker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TomCollins

Well no, as has been discussed itf over and over, the US actually ranks horribly on all three metrics, especially for such a rich nation. You pay the most (by a wide margin), have the least amount of access (40 million uninsured), and rank well down the list in most quality metrics.

However, there is no doubt that the US has some absolutely amazing medical facilities, but if no one but a select few can go there what's the point? Those places may as well not even exist.

04-13-2012 , 01:41 PM

#239

Jonaspublius

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TomCollins

Quality is fine if you have the right insurance and live in the right area, and don't have a condition hospitals and insurance companies treat the right way. If you're sick and need a week in a hospital, but Humana says go home in three or pay.....does it matter how nice the hospital is?

04-13-2012 , 01:57 PM

#240

bernie

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dinopoker

The non-select few get to go bankrupt trying to access that care. As opposed to the other alternative quality care they have available.

b

04-13-2012 , 02:12 PM

#241

krmont22

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So by access, you mean how many people can have it for free?

04-13-2012 , 02:13 PM

#242

Low Key

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Well if someone has zero dollars, and health care costs two dollars, they don't have access to it, do they?

04-13-2012 , 02:33 PM

#243

Fablisitude

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Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 110

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomCollins

If your paying at all it seems pretttty expensive to me

04-13-2012 , 03:33 PM

#244

krmont22

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Low Key

Well if someone has zero dollars, and health care costs two dollars, they don't have access to it, do they?

They have access to ways to get 2 dollars, so I would say they have access.

04-13-2012 , 03:36 PM

#245

suzzer99

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Wow stunningly good point. Well played.

04-13-2012 , 03:55 PM

#246

TomCollins

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fablisitude

If your paying at all it seems pretttty expensive to me

Someone is paying for it. Whether or not you get it by mooching off someone else or not is another issue.

04-13-2012 , 04:14 PM

#247

einbert

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Quote:

Originally Posted by suzzer99

"It's not a lie, if you believe it."

Anyone else think the R's constant blatant dishonesty to the general public is going to start effecting them more as people become more internet savvy and less trusting of mainstream news sources?

A quote like this seems to be absolutely suicidal for a politician to make, yet these are the kinds of statements they love to make:

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/201...mportant-wome/

Quote:

Whatever gaps exist, he insists, stem from women’s decision to prioritize childrearing over their careers. “Take a hypothetical husband and wife who are both lawyers,” he says. “But the husband is working 50 or 60 hours a week, going all out, making 200 grand a year. The woman takes time off, raises kids, is not go go go. Now they’re 50 years old. The husband is making 200 grand a year, the woman is making 40 grand a year. It wasn’t discrimination. There was a different sense of urgency in each person.” [...]

Grothman doesn’t accept these studies. When I ran the numbers by him, he replied, “The American Association of University Women is a pretty liberal group.” Nor, he argued, does its conclusion take into account other factors, like “goals in life. You could argue that money is more important for men. I think a guy in their first job, maybe because they expect to be a breadwinner someday, may be a little more money-conscious. To attribute everything to a so-called bias in the workplace is just not true.”

Cue Stephen Colbert, reality has a well-known liberal bias ldo.

04-13-2012 , 04:20 PM

#248

suzzer99

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I don't see my aunts and uncles becoming more internet savvy or questioning FNC dogma any time soon.

04-13-2012 , 04:27 PM

#249

Jonaspublius

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If anything chain emails, drudge, and Facebook have dumbed down the American voter. Not to mention the lowered content of local newspapers.

04-14-2012 , 12:46 PM

#250

T50_Omaha8

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Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,741

What quality metrics do we rank poorly in?

I'm not talking health outcomes, but the actual quality of the service provided, which in most cases seems extremely high to me. I had terrible food poisoning a couple years ago, went to the ER, and ended up getting $10k worth of tests done that night to make sure my appendix hadn't exploded or something like that. Quality if the last of my gripes when it comes to healthcare.

If, for whatever reason, the food business decided it would/could only produce filet mignon, a ton of people would starve. But the food they did eat would be very high quality.

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