atta boy. If you keep up the rhetoric lessons, perhaps some day the ranks will even be full of people willing to listen to your drivel.

The E.U is shockingly anti-democratic and it is competing with Nation States for sovereignty. It's the modern day version of the Articles of Confederation.

At the pace Europe is disintegrating, the E.U will be forced to break apart in the next few years unless it goes through significant reform.

We've bailed out the banks and now we are bailing out countries. It's unsustainable. As long as the E.U continues to ignore free market principles. The debt crisis will go on and on.

The collapse will come any day now. Just a few more years amirite?

Probably not wrong. Now what's your point again?

13th, the UK isn't part of the eurozone, just fyi.

How can collapse come now if they have money enough for until mid-october or something?

Dont agree with much of this but I agree people totally over-estimate the likelyhood of a breakup of any sort.

They seem to have no idea how the EU operates. Even if Greece defaults, which itself may not be allowed to happen, we will hear of orderly defaults and whatever turmoil follows the EU will claim to be the solution.

Yeah and they are going to be thankful for that sometime in the very near future.

Bailing out Greece, Spain, Italy, and Portugal will not work. The debt crisis will continue as long as E.U politicians believe this and the entire world economy will suffer because of it. Thanks Europe.

Heh, I guess it's payback for crashing the world economy earlier

Huh, well, I'm just some shmug, of course, with little economic understanding, but riddle me this:

- Italy is the 4th largest EU economy, worlds 8th largest. It's debt is 100 and change as % of GDP, compared to 80 and change for germany. We're the worlds 4th larget and europes prime, paying record low interest rates on our debt currently. So why would a 20% increase in debt mean they default if their current economic situation isn't only sound but if they're also undertaking significant steps to cut spendings.

- Spain... has a 20% lower national dept as % of GDP than germany (~60%). It has also just passed significant spending cut programs. It's economy is europes 5th largest after italy. So why would they default again?

So if we actually have to undertake steps to bail out greece that go above and beyond those already layed out, why would the oh-so rational markets assume that we won't do the same to whatever extend is needed for portugal (that prolly being the most likely next candidate)? Portugals debt is 80% of GDP - that totals about 200 billion. Meh.

Have you heard the term market hysteria before?

I see... So you're one of those countless ADHD posters who insists that if something doesn't happen overnight, it must not be happening at all.

Collapse will mean different things for different people at different times. Surely, behind your gated community, it may take a little longer.

Dont agree with much of this but I agree people totally over-estimate the likelyhood of a breakup of any sort.

They seem to have no idea how the EU operates. Even if Greece defaults, which itself may not be allowed to happen, we will hear of orderly defaults and whatever turmoil follows the EU will claim to be the solution.

There's a view that the EU is unable to make decisions so cannot act like the USA does but this is a huge mistake. When push comes to shove the heads of state gather with the officials and they make radical decisions to find a way forward, anyone who tries to descent is brow beaten into a compromise. Its not pretty but its very effective in moving the beast forward.

Maybe very significant?

"Greek crisis: PM George Papandreou cancels US visit"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14960216

Can only work if Germany/France/England agree to invade and colonize Southern Europe.

A currency, even legal tender can not be successful if the market does not want it. Thinking that the strong Merkel or the mighty Sarko have any say in the market indicates that you believe what is told on Television. Only the market decides and it will tell if there is room for the € or there is none. I will write about that important question later.

1. They do not have the money (eventually they will go broke everybody knows that.)
2. ???
3. massive capital flight

It is all about banks and capital!

lol at you thinking Bailing out Greece is for our "greater good".

Also you absolutely have no idea why the "Tea Party Fraction" opposed the raising of the debt ceiling - you probably do not even know what the Tea Party actually consists of.

Brainwashed much? (I love how Euros, like me once I have to admit, come in here and try to tell Americans how it is done - the Norwegianguy is probably even worse than you - since he "loves socialism" but is glad Norwege is not in the EU - congrats that your leaders have made the "right" choice....

The great euro swindle

FYI leftists in Scandinavia were and are very skeptical towards the EU, while the right is generally positive.

Good for them.

Right?

lol at the the Telegraph which being kind, is a piece of toilet paper. The FT is just about the only decent paper and would have had grown up analysis from many perspectives.

Sure the Euro-sceptics were right when taking shots at Brussels, some targets are too big for anyone to miss. Doesn't mean many weren't loonies (not all of us of course)

The tragedy of all this is the problem was known about in advance. Convergence was required before countries were allowed to join the Euro and it was an open secret that the criteria were being totally fudged. If Brussels and any other politician didn't know the criteria were being flouted its because they made damn sure not to know - most of course did know but made damn sure no-one could prove that they knew.

French banks could tip Europe back into a full-blown banking crisis

What are the reasons for being against it?

Also your simplistic categorisation between left and right does not seem to indicate a very differentiated view on politics.

But first:

isolationist socialst - good for you ...

In Germany we had a term for that movement... just saying