Freedom to protest denied for smokers? - Page 3 - Politics and Economics

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Freedom to protest denied for smokers?

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08-31-2013 , 09:12 PM

#51

[Phill]

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Air is regulated by the EPA afaik.

08-31-2013 , 09:18 PM

#52

pvn

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Posts: n/a

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmakinmecrzy

I'm not sure you're aware of this, but no one owns air.

dude you don't want to get nitty here.

08-31-2013 , 09:34 PM

#53

govman6767

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Turn Prophet

If trolling, pretty good...

has to be trooling...

cigs were like 3 cents a pack or something in the 40
s not dollars...

was not dollars until say...mid 1990's ???

08-31-2013 , 09:35 PM

#54

Kedu

temp-banned

Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,704

Quote:

Originally Posted by theskillzdatklls

what sub said. i also wouldn't give two ****s but the fact is that their ****** choices are paid for with my tax dollars when they need an iron lung.

Smokers cost less than nonsmokers. Don't let that get in the way of your vitriol though

08-31-2013 , 09:35 PM

#55

govman6767

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you don't own space lahey.......everyone knows NAYSU DOES

08-31-2013 , 09:37 PM

#56

GEAUX UL

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Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,178

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Phill]

The "right" to own a gun is a good made up right that is commonly thrown around. Seems a really obvious one, dunno how you missed it.

Not to derail the thread but semantics aside that's a pretty darn clear constitutional right:

"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I don't really hear the right make up "rights" all that often, or at least I can't think of any examples but feel free to list some more. I always try to spread my hate across all sides of the political spectrum. :-)

08-31-2013 , 09:47 PM

#57

bundy5

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedu

Smokers cost less than nonsmokers. Don't let that get in the way of your vitriol though

They do? What about the cost to the state for their healthcare when they become afflicted with the usual deadly diseases that are caused by their smoking?

Or are you going on the theory that the taxes they have paid on their smokes over a life-time more than makes up for their eventual burden on the health system?

08-31-2013 , 09:56 PM

#58

GEAUX UL

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Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 2,178

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundy5

I would assume the argument is if we magically eliminated tobacco-related cancers from the population we'd still have to spend the same amount of money on all the other diseases and cancers that would kill these people instead. Plus we'd have the added costs associated with an elderly population that lives 5-10 years longer. In theory, the quicker the elderly die off the better it is for the rest of the population.

08-31-2013 , 10:05 PM

#59

[Phill]

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedu

Smokers cost less than nonsmokers. Don't let that get in the way of your vitriol though

Maybe. It isnt definitively proven.

Given the lethality of heart disease I suspect that if smoking does save on healthcare overall overeating probably does too.

08-31-2013 , 10:42 PM

#60

Subterranean2

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundy5

Dead people cost less
Smokers die 10 years earlier than non smokers, a lot of those 10 years will be post working age when they would just be a drain on society anyways.

08-31-2013 , 10:46 PM

#61

bundy5

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Subterranean2

Dead people cost less
Smokers die 10 years earlier than non smokers, a lot of those 10 years will be post working age when they would just be a drain on society anyways.

Accepting that, is there a case for governments to be promoting smoking?

09-01-2013 , 12:03 AM

#62

thekid345

banned

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 3,616

Quote:

Originally Posted by GEAUX UL

I love how people make up "rights" to win arguments.

I have a "right" to free healthcare
I have a "right" to a "living wage"
I have a "right" to free internet
I have a "right: to cheap student loans
I have a "right" to breathe smoke free air in a place I willingly entered.
I have a "right" to tell another human being to go outside and smoke, where its freezing cold

Did I miss anything?

let me help you b/c living in a cold city and being a smoker myself sucks at times but and its a big one.... many present day non smokers literally will look at a person smoking and become disgusted sometimes even making fun of smokers. The great challenge is getting non smokers to understand there fellow man oops i meant smoker

09-01-2013 , 12:11 AM

#63

thekid345

banned

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 3,616

Quote:

Originally Posted by govman6767

has to be trooling...

cigs were like 3 cents a pack or something in the 40
s not dollars...

was not dollars until say...mid 1990's ???

not trolling

yay I was saying that (adjusted for inflation) cigs were significantly lower in price during the "good old days"

09-01-2013 , 01:03 AM

#64

dkgojackets

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Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86,120

Im all about the government ****ing over groups of people that Im not a part of so tax these idiots 350% per pack for all I care.

I also enjoy designated smoking areas at sporting events and such. I can walk by, laugh, and throw peanuts at them like Im at the zoo

09-01-2013 , 04:52 AM

#65

Subterranean2

adept

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 1,173

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundy5

Accepting that, is there a case for governments to be promoting smoking?

09-01-2013 , 06:15 AM

#66

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,688

Quote:

Originally Posted by bundy5

Accepting that, is there a case for governments to be promoting smoking?

How about they just sod off and let more serious people govern who will concentrate on the real business of government. Maybe just maybe if they managed to govern well we might listen to their advice on how to run our private lives.

What is totally clear is that those who insist smokers should pay more because they cost more are extremely dishonest and/or very stupid - either way they shouldn't be allowed to make laws. They probably mean well, bless 'em.

09-01-2013 , 06:41 AM

#67

Kedu

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Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,704

Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

What is totally clear is that those who insist smokers should pay more because they cost more are extremely dishonest and/or very stupid - either way they shouldn't be allowed to make laws. They probably mean well, bless 'em.

If you polled politicians I'd guess 90% would say smokers are a burden to taxpayers. They might mean well but it's still pretty scary that we're being governed by morons.

09-01-2013 , 07:26 AM

#68

chezlaw

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Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,688

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedu

If you polled politicians I'd guess 90% would say smokers are a burden to taxpayers. They might mean well but it's still pretty scary that we're being governed by morons.

They're mostly being extremely dishonest.

They dont know or care if smokers are actually a burden to the taxpayers, its just a useful argument.

09-01-2013 , 07:58 AM

#69

bundy5

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chezlaw

They're mostly being extremely dishonest.

They dont know or care if smokers are actually a burden to the taxpayers, its just a useful argument.

They might not be a burden to the government given the tax they pay but they are, to some degree, a burden on society having to find designated public spots for them to smoke, non-smokers having to avoid 2nd hand smoke etc - maybe its time to look at prohibition.

09-01-2013 , 08:01 AM

#70

chezlaw

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bundy5

Definitely time to look at prohibition. The burden on society is catastrophically high.

09-01-2013 , 08:16 AM

#71

13ball

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Quote:

Originally Posted by GEAUX UL

That right was still made up. All rights are made up.

09-01-2013 , 08:19 AM

#72

13ball

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Pigovian taxes on cigarettes increase happiness among smokers. You're welcome.

Quote:

The authors find that higher cigarette taxes are in fact associated with a large increase in self-reported well-being in both the United States and Canada, among those likely to be smokers. Furthermore, they find that this increase is not present for other excise taxes, such as those on beer and alcohol, illustrating that this finding represents an effect of taxes on happiness through reduced smoking and not simply through changes in the size of government.

09-01-2013 , 08:33 AM

#73

pvn

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Posts: n/a

Lets try pigovian taxes on being

A) poor
B) unemployed
C) _________

We can both discourage those behaviors AND make them feel better about themselves at the same time. Because feelings.

09-01-2013 , 09:32 AM

#74

13ball

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Science denial itt.

09-01-2013 , 09:52 AM

#75

Rococo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kedu

Smokers cost less than nonsmokers. Don't let that get in the way of your vitriol though

Where is the study on this point? I want to read it. A long time ago, I read Kip Vancusi's litigation expert reports on this point but I don't remember the specifics. This argument has been around for at least 20 years. This was an argument that the cigarette industry promoted for years before they paid billions of dollars to settle claims brought by various state AGs.

I obviously understand the general concept, but I wonder if it accounts sufficiently for productivity loss on the way to death.

Last edited by Rococo; 09-01-2013 at 10:11 AM.

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