I was going to ask you if you were a Serb when you seemed to be defending or excusing Milosevic's conduct in Yugo.

That aside. Do you believe that Milosevic was a monster or not?

Best of luck John.

Anyone care to enlighten me on how/where Jesus advocated "going back in time"/stepping back from society. As far as I know know Jesus wanted his followers to take an active part in society, not turn away from it.

Sounds familiar. I thought the idea was to not hide out in churches and the like, because you can't cure sins while hiding.

The idea of "technological progress" was likely an unfathomable concept 2000 years ago. There is nothing inconsistent with thinking that the modern lifestyle is unhealthy and that a return to a more agrarian lifestyle would be more amenable to a way of life in harmony with the teachings of Christ.

coming from a socialist
government lover i am gonna have to say....

Don't you think?

I was going to put a bias disclaimer but I forgot. I wasn't exactly defending nor excusing him, but there is more to the story. He is not a leader. The reason Yugo became an epic cluster**** is because there was five years of a power vacuum when no one wanted to step into Tito's shoes--including Milosevic. It took him 5 years to take something that was basically his. The ones doing the massacring were by in large units under separate, more influential and maybe even more powerful, leadership than the JNA. Fact is, the situation was forced upon him and he wasn't competent enough to respond properly. A monster is not something I would call him, but he was definitely a bad leader in the same sense as GWB--albeit infinitely more intelligent. I also wouldn't blame GWB for what America's going through--there is a lot more to it than that. If you look at both Milosevic and GWB as ahistorical singularities disconnected from economic processes (amongst others), it is very easy to label them responsible.

EDIT: I dont' know what Alanis is supposed to relate to...

The Kosovo discussion having risen out of my mention of Finkelstein's book, I think it's rather fitting to recycle the response he gave his critics:

EDIT: The 'separate' link should be a particularly interesting read.

Grunching, but wow, now it all makes sense. I'm new to this forum and couldn't figure out why John was taking a lot of the stances that he was.

John, I do sincerely wish you the best.

imo

Anyone who remembers JK's alter ego MMMMMM knows that JK will be back, either as JK or another account. I couldn't have said it better:

Ok, now the crazy posts about Islam make sense now. Good luck JK, I liked your posts, I hope I don't hear about your camp on CNN whilst up in flames.

Why should purity of mind and spirit worry you? Would you not like your own thoughts and life to be more pure (whatever "pure" may mean to you, in the good sense)?

To answer your other questions:

1) yes of course, our villagers will have the right to bear arms. I will be selecting a state for our Puritan settlement from among the following: Wyoming, Montana, Alaska, Maine, Vermont. All of the above states are not too restrictive on gun laws, have large tracts of reasonably priced remote raw land containing abundant resources, and are pretty to look at. New Hampshire might otherwise qualify, except for too high property taxes.

2) I have often considered the question you bring forth: of how to reconcile Jesus' instructions to turn the other cheek, love those who hate you, and resist not evil; as contrasted against the practical matter and legitimate right of self-defense.

My conclusion, after much consideration, is that while I can forgive those who do wrong to me, I am not a perfect enough being to act as did Jesus, and allow them to do harm to me. So I am capable of following some of Jesus' instructions in that regard, but not all. I freely admit I am a less perfect, less holy, being than Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, and cannot change that (although I can and do work to improve it). So I will defend myself vigorously should need arise. I would expect Puritan Settlement members to practice forbearance and tolerance but would also expect them to resist assaults. I think our credo on such matters will be: to give love, respect and forgiveness to all; but to also acknowledge the we are sinful imperfect creatures who cannot emulate Jesus 100%, and therefore we will defend vigorously should we ever be attacked. We will bother no one and anyone attacking us would be purely an aggressor.

It is interesting that Jesus was able to extend complete love and forgiveness to his tormentors, after willingly allowing himself to be captured by them, yet imitation of such in its fullness is something generally impossible for humans. We imperfect sin-filled humans just aren't capable of completely giving up ourselves and of giving all, including total love and forgiveness, to those who are trying to do us great evil. Is this not further evidence of the divinity of Jesus Christ, that he could do what we cannot? I think the words of Clint Eastwood are appropriate here, too: "A man's got to know his limitations."

Thanks for your interesting question.

Isn't that contradictory to much of your posting about your understanding of fundamentalist Islam/Christianity?

Leftists insist on their personal right to engage in any perversion. Purity is an abhorant stricture since its existance implies some power higher than themselves. And that's roughly why you'll be moving on.

I wish you every hope and great success.

Too bad one of them isn't New Mexico but I suspect the liberal government and water situation in some of the state might have been a deal breaker. Please choose Wyoming or Montana. Somewhat closer than the others.

It strikes me as odd that you continue to confuse me with this other poster, so my interest was finally piqued enough to do a little archive-reading.

It appears that there are some glaring differences between the character to whom you refer, and myself.

The first and most glaring difference I found was that the MMMMMM character to whom you refer, was a staunch supporter of the Iraq War and a frequent and vocal champion of its benefits. I, on the other hand, have on numerous occasions thoroughly condemned the Iraq War and completely lambasted the rationales of all who support it. If you would care to do a little searching regarding the poster's names and the Iraq War, I am sure you will see the same difference I have seen. In fact, I cannot imagine any two people holding positions so thoroughly different and antagonist to the other's position, as the views of myself versus MMMMMM on the Iraq War.

A second difference, it appears, is that I don't get the impression that MMMMMM was a fundamentalist Christian such as myself.

I'd like now to take this final opportunity to make once more the offer I have made on this forum several times before: to anyone wishing to learn more about Christianity and the unlimited love of Jesus Christ, please feel free to PM me for a list of additional select Christian reading material.

I would also suggest, for those who may be interested, to largely ignore the common denominational sects and churches and their teachings, and instead, seek to understand directly the words of Jesus in the New Testament.

For any who might be entertaining the remote notion of perhaps joining our future Puritan Settlement and Farmstead; and practicing traditional crafts, and living in accordance with simplicity, Nature, and dwelling in and with the spirit of God, some further reading on Puritan beliefs and tradition might prove interesting.

If you have ever visited Plimoth Plantation, in Plymouth, Massachusetts, that might provide a rough idea of what our settlement will look like. However, our primary focus will not be on recreating an atmosphere for living museum purposes; but rather, on living in the Light itself, and living in harmony with the blending of Nature's creation and human creation fused together in traditional craftmanships, and living in harmony with God's will and spirit, as shown by the unlimited love of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.

Thanks to all for reading.

Isn't what contradictory?

Very insightful. I think one of the greatest differences between outlooks is the fulcrum of the acceptance or denial of a greater power than human. Are we here for, and as a part of, a greater purpose? Or are we here randomly and for no greater purpose or meaning than what we see immediately?

I believe the universe was not created randomly out of nothing. God may have put some sort of super-complex random-number-generator in the universe at its creation, but that doesn't mean the initial creation was Godless or purely random.

Purity, in my view, is a beautiful thing, as are all higher callings and purposes. I think God created the universe to be moving ever higher. Man has free will and the power to choose between creation and destruction (or nihilism).

Our Puritan Settlement and Farmstead will be designed so that we may experience the joy of creation on a daily basis in our farming and traditonal crafting.

I have books on not only log-home building and timber-frame joinery, but also on Blacksmithing and on Dry Stone Masonry. I hope we may expand the number of traditional crafts we become proficient at, to include a wide and useful variety of arts and skills. For instance, Tailoring would be a welcome addition. Silversmithing would be a beautiful additional craft.

The great thing about many traditional crafted items today, is that they may not only be used by our future community, but they may also be sold over the Internet to those who appreciate fine, well-made traditional crafts. So we would not only become largely self-sufficient for our own needs with enough crafting expertises, but we would also be able to raise a modest amount of money as an income stream through the sale of those crafts to the world.

The most important, or most core, crafts will be those involving building and farming. I could definitely envision an expansion into many useful arts and cratfs, though.

For instance, Herbalism is as traditional craft and herbs sell well, not only for cooking but also for use in traditional remedies and supplements. A greenhouse of select herbs could be a very healthful and profitable venture. Just take a stroll through GNC, for example. Supplemental herbs sell for far more per pound than do garden vegetables.

Thanks very much for your encouragement and support, and please feel free to keep in touch via PM should you wish.

Thanks:-)

Wyoming and Montana are beautiful indeed, and with great natural resources, and have relatively freedom-leaning political traditions. They are among the most likely choices.

I think a lifestyle such as the Amish lead, is indeed healthier for the body and mind overall.

I think it is easier, too, to have positive thoughts when you aren't daily getting cut off by people in heavy traffic, or dealing with many of the other annoying attendances to modern urban living. We won't be Amish but there may be some parallels.

Will you have the internetz??? If so please post TR.

Most likely, yes; but as this project is in the early stages of conception, planning, and preparation, any TR will be at a date well in the future. When the land is acquired (debt-free, as all of our possessions and living will be) and ground is first broken, an actual preliminary TR may be forthcoming.

We will not be a totally insular community, but will interact with the greater community at large on a selective basis. We might participate also in select greater community events or projects.

The purpose of our community will be to provide a daily living environment for us which will be conducive to communion with Nature and with God. The greater purity achieved in our settlement, the easier it will be to live in harmony with the natural rhythm of life, and with God's spirit.

We will also likely offer for sale to the neighboring communities our fresh organically grown produce, and various woodcraft items, including very useful products such as sheds, chairs and tables.

Blacksmithing is a very useful country trade. Forge-welding is stronger than arc-welding, should something like a large axle on a truck break, or a plowing blade be severely damaged against a rock. A good Blacksmith can make such things as knives and broadaxe heads, or re-temper a tool which has had its edge damaged.

Our goal will not be not to ostracize ourselves entirely from the world, but to create a positive, natural and spiritually pleasing environment within which to live on a daily basis.

If this was so, god wouldn't have invented Third World labour.