The CIA's Torture Campaign - Page 5 - Politics and Economics

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The CIA's Torture Campaign

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12-09-2014 , 07:51 PM

#101

Jbrochu

banned

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16,052

Quote:

Originally Posted by surftheiop

Was reading that apparently one of the detainees "confessed" during torture to a plan to assassinate jimmy carter. (Obviously determined to be completely fabricated)

CIA probably immediately released the guy with best wishes to his future success.

12-09-2014 , 07:52 PM

#102

sebbb

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,409

Well Jimmy Carter is still alive, so I guess torture worked?

12-09-2014 , 07:54 PM

#103

Jbrochu

banned

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16,052

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike-3

No interest in reading the report, didn't start a campaign for torture and as it applies to a civilized opponent I am against it.... The people being discussed have value solely for the info to be extracted after that I prefer them to be dead so whatever needs to be done to them...

You sound very civilized.

12-09-2014 , 07:58 PM

#104

kimoser22

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,839

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike-3

No interest in discussing a movie.... But the line is correct on this topic.

Listen it is ugly nasty work but we not talking about an enemy from another country it is a different game

I think there is a point there, his character believes (and IMO rightly so) that he has an important role in serving in the military, but he then goes to far in believing that since he has an important role that anything he does is morally correct, so while transferring the below-par soldier away would have remedied the situation, he has him beaten (which ends up killing him).

The CIA has an important role gathering intel, but when the experts agree that this intel could be just as effectively gleaned from normal interrogative methods, and the CIA in their blind hubris pushes the boundaries of acceptable behavior then plays the morally righteous "the men who guard the walls" line I think there is a parallel.

12-09-2014 , 07:58 PM

#105

sebbb

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,409

Arguing that "torture is worse at getting the required info" is a bit dangerous. What if it was the opposite? Torture is still disgusting and inhumane.

12-09-2014 , 08:02 PM

#106

Strike-3

banned

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 497

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjoefish

So are we allowed to torture Americans if it will save other Americans? Or just brown people when it saves no one?

Americans no - we have laws. Terrorists brown yellow or white.... Different story

12-09-2014 , 08:05 PM

#107

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike-3

Americans no - we have laws. Terrorists brown yellow or white.... Different story

And you just take Barack Obama's word on who is or isn't a terrorist?

12-09-2014 , 08:09 PM

#108

zikzak

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 22,198

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike-3

Well the report pretty strongly suggests that torture is an ineffective way to get that valuable information. So I guess you're going to have to make a choice between getting the information you think is needed and your sadistic bloodlust. Which is it?

12-09-2014 , 08:10 PM

#109

Jbrochu

banned

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16,052

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebbb

Arguing that "torture is worse at getting the required info" is a bit dangerous. What if it was the opposite? Torture is still disgusting and inhumane.

I'm against it even if it was 10x as effective. Makes it really stupid when you consider it doesn't even really work.

12-09-2014 , 08:27 PM

#110

spanktehbadwookie

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 19,374

Chest thumping doesn't make the ends justify the means even if there were actual ends to make note of.

12-09-2014 , 08:32 PM

#111

Jbrochu

banned

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 16,052

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie

Chest thumping doesn't make the ends justify the means even if there were actual ends to make note of.

Can I borrow your Spank-o-matic 3000 Word Salad Generator sometime?

12-09-2014 , 08:49 PM

#112

Strike-3

banned

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 497

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimoser22

One is a movie and is real - I get what you are saying but still movie.

12-09-2014 , 08:52 PM

#113

ikestoys

banned

Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 94,424

Really not buying that anything in the torture report galvanizes the opposition.

12-09-2014 , 08:55 PM

#114

Strike-3

banned

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 497

Quote:

Originally Posted by zikzak

Sadistic bloodlust.... Oh the drama but please just they deserve worse then anything we give them

"The report" the latest holy grail of the left!

12-09-2014 , 08:56 PM

#115

Joss

banned

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 1,301

Quote:

Originally Posted by lycosid

Of course, the cliche answer would be that the best way to handle a torture report is to not torture some folks, but that window is already closed. The slightly less cliche answer is that, hopefully, by releasing a detailed reflection on the period and holding both the individuals responsible (LOL) and the country at large accountable for their crimes, we can discourage these types of events and the backlash they carry with them from happening again in the future. Maybe a truly earnest accounting and apology (again, lol) could restore some good faith from moderates in the beleaguered areas.

This hits the nail on the head and only sounds cliche because no one is actually arguing against this report in good faith. Anyone truly worried about the fallout should be against the practice of torture in the first place, yet that's not what we're seeing at all.

12-09-2014 , 08:58 PM

#116

Money2Burn

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike-3

No interest in reading the report, didn't start a campaign for torture and as it applies to a civilized opponent I am against it.... The people being discussed have value solely for the info to be extracted after that I prefer them to be dead so whatever needs to be done to them...

*facepalm*

12-09-2014 , 08:58 PM

#117

Strike-3

banned

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 497

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

And you just take Barack Obama's word on who is or isn't a terrorist?

Wookie do you really think I take obamas word on anything? C'mon really

12-09-2014 , 09:08 PM

#118

Strike-3

banned

Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 497

Quote:

Originally Posted by Money2Burn

*facepalm*

Lol this report is end all of info on torture and interrogation? Yea didn't think so

12-09-2014 , 09:22 PM

#119

Ineedaride2

Politics Court Jester

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 25,080

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike-3

Lol this report is end all of info on torture and interrogation? Yea didn't think so

What is the end all of the info? Can you link it?

12-09-2014 , 09:23 PM

#120

rjoefish

Got Out the Vote

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 31,086

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strike-3

Americans no - we have laws. Terrorists brown yellow or white.... Different story

So our laws only apply to Americans?

12-09-2014 , 09:23 PM

#121

lozen

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 26,637

Wasnt it a Republican Ronny Reagan that passed the law that torture is a crime and you got Mccain also saying that. So if Cheney leaves the USA he should be arrested and tried. We all know that will never happen.

12-09-2014 , 09:29 PM

#122

chezlaw

Limey Bastard

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 48,893

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Torture is worse at getting the required info.

Is anybody against the torture just because it isn't very effective?

We should be against it even if it works.

12-09-2014 , 09:29 PM

#123

Money2Burn

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,628

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ineedaride2

What is the end all of the info? Can you link it?

He thinks 24 is all you need to watch to understand the effectiveness of torture.

12-09-2014 , 09:29 PM

#124

spanktehbadwookie

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 19,374

Here is some more info on torture.
http://www.vox.com/2014/12/9/7360359/torture-sere

Quote:

Torture is simply a terrible way to elicit true information, but it is an extremely effective way to cause physical and emotional pain and to compel people to, for example, read out a false confession you've pre-written for them. That is what torture does, so naturally when the CIA went to adopt torture, it had to borrow from pre-existing torture programs, and all the successful torture programs were designed to cause pain and elicit false information, because that is what torture does.