Because 'your' getting something for it.

idk, why do you think having US backed governments in the most energy resource rich part of the planet is advantageous to US power?

Having governments that do what you want them to (crushing opposition, crushing labour movements, crushing those pushing for social reforms, keeping tariffs down, keeping competition out, keeping taxes low, providing cheap labour from desperate people, providing military strength in strategic positions and so on), is pretty good for US business interests and geo-political strategic aims.

I'd be interested to see some studies (I'm sure there are some somewhere) on whether the typical American gains from the American imperial project. I'd be willing to guess not. There was an interesting study of the British Empire which found that, for the country as a whole, the Empire was about break even, the profits from it just about covered the costs of running it. I wonder if the US is the same, and whether American workers gain overall from it.

I suspect many of the benefits are unquantifiable. You could probably prove anything from its 100% money down the drain to it's a 1000% return.

so because fatah and hamas have bad intentions towards Israel means its fine to condemn all Palestinians to live like animals ?

what people want to do and what people are actually able to do are two very different things , if this was not the case id be a bajillionaire and to hell with sitting here talking **** on 2+2 , as it is im poor as **** and have nothing better to do .

The only reason why Hamas and Fatah are not able to do what they want to do is because of the IDF. They are on no moral high ground, and frankly their aggression is the reason why Gaza is sealed off both from Israel and Egypt.

The US and Israel wanted the Palestinians to hold elections. They didn't like the result so they imposed economic sanctions on the PA.

Following Hamas' purge of Fatah, they imposed a blockade on Gaza.

In both cases it has been ordinary Palestinians who have suffered. Do you think the election and actions of Hamas justify collectively punishing the Gazan population?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f.../04/gaza200804

The Gaza Bombshell

When is the next set of elections going to be again? Democracy is not vote once and never again. Nor are democracies required to deal with every other democracy. Actions have consequences.

Furthermore, Israel has the right to self defense. Hamas chooses to use these 'ordinary people's' suffering as a shield from proper retaliation, yet you seem to only want to punish Israel. Furthermore, Egypt is very much on board with the blockade and is part of it. Why do you think that is?

Israel isn't going into Gaza and Shermanating the territory like most governments would do (hell, see Russia for the latest example). Israel is telling Gazans to stay the **** away. You can't expect Israel to stick a thumb up its ass and allow their security to be compromised.

Wanting the Palestinians to hold elections, getting an election, not liking the results, and then squashing the whole thing was particularly douchebagish of the US. Unless I was only told half the story.

It wasn't just the US. It was everyone that bordered the region, including Egypt. Why do you think Egypt went along with the blockade?

And again, just because someone has a democracy does not mean they can do whatever the **** they want and other democracies just have to go along. Europe didn't have to just allow Hitler to be Hitler because he won an election, and Hamas is hardly running any sort of democracy now.

On top of that, Israel and Egypt have it fairly clear what needs to be done in order to ease the blockade. The first step would be to free Shalat. The second step would be to stop firing rockets into Israel. If Hamas really wanted the blockade to be over and to improve the life of the people they are supposed to represent, they easily could. Instead, they continue to use the people's suffering as a shield for making pithy attacks in a war they can not win.

Thanks ikestoys

Not at all, I think overall Hamas is terrible. I'm guessing the leadership doesn't particularly care about the lives of its citizens. But I think there are other ways of eliminating rocket attacks than by bombing Gaza. If anything, this just radicalizes the general population. Israel could make efforts to appeal to the less radical factions within Hamas (aka the non Damascus-based elements) rather than viewing that movement as a monolithic block. Futhermore, Hamas proved that it was able to virtually eliminate rocket attacks during the truce, which, I don't need to remind you, was broken by Israel.

If Hamas' goal was to encourage Israeli attacks simply to generate condemnation of Israel by the international community, I have to wonder what exactly they were thinking. Israel has repeatedly shown it has little interest in what the rest of the world thinks. Israel believes that as long as it has US support, which is not likely to die down soon, it can essentially do most whatever it wants. Furthermore, there is evidence that Israel had been preparing for this attack more than 6 months in advance, which raises questions about their motives for securing a truce in the first place.

Because the US gives them more money than any other nation expect Israel? Because this effectively constrains their foreign policy? Because the Egyptian regime doesn't have a great interest in what happens to ordinary Palestinians civilians?

I respectively disagree

LOL. Gaza has one of the highest population densities in the world. Border crossings were either closed or accessible on a limited basis only. Gaza is their home. Where do you want them to go?

LOL by virtually eliminate you mean not at all. How many shots can I take at your house with a .22 rifle before you get pissed?
Israel is perpetually preparing for war with the palestinians ldo.

No. They got on board because they didn't want a bunch of militant refugees in their territory LDO.

Do you know what the Shermanating term refers to? It's a civil war reference to a general that burned down everything in his path. Israel isn't even in Gaza anymore. Damn facts.


I don't really care, until they play nice they stay in the corner.

You were. You only see it from a simplistic perspective.

The Palestinians held elections. They did, and chose a government that chooses terror as a political strategy, denies Israel's right to exist, etc etc etc. The US chooses not to do business with a government that chooses terror and denial, etc.

What's the alternative? Do business with a government that kills your citizens? We don't have to like the results, but we don't have to treat them as our friends either.

Squashing the whole thing? What do you mean? Hamas drove Fatah out of Gaza.

No doubt, but do you not believe that their foreign policy is constrained at least somewhat by the amount of aid they receive from the US?

so you're essentially saying that the 200 or so children that died got what they deserved?

It is not significant compared to the obvious interest to keep a bunch of militant refugees out of your ****.


No. The fault of that is on the Gazans as a whole.

PS - Your graph is illegible and not cited.

Oh and lets not pretend like the ceasefire was an actual move towards peace. It was simply a chance for Hamas to rearm. Hamas was never planning on stopping to try to destroy Israel.

no responsibilty on the IDF at all for 200 dead kids ?

sorry bout that

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link http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/mal...f/ipc_e007.pdf

just so you know, the 200 number is a compromise figure I came up with. B'Tselem states 318 children were killed, PCHR states 313, IDF states 89, and the Palestinian Ministry of Health states 431.

Have you read this? I remember you said the same thing numerous times in previous thread and I linked this several times in previous threads. If you have read it what do you have to say (never responded before)?

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/f.../04/gaza200804

You don't know that. Hamas leadership is smart. They know Israel is not going away. There's routinely a difference between rhetoric and actual objectives. Hamas has repeatedly offered an enduring truce in return for pre-67 borders. Why not test that? It could develop into something real and permanent.

That is identical to the reasoning behind firing rockets indiscriminately at all Israelis. It is an uncivilized point of view.

There's a big disconnect here -- the slaughter in operation Cast Lead, vs. the smattering of rockets that weren't even Hamas. You have tears only for Israelis.

Wait, if the rockets weren't Hamas, how did Hamas stop them?

And I'll go with what Hamas actually says instead of what you want to believe.