It does not matter how you see it, there is a concrete reality impervious to your subjective stance. Its nothing to do with Lobbys. Nothing.

The policies of the single market/EU would stop any Corbyn or analogue from making any Labour government significantly different to a New Labour government. There are numerous policies that exist will continue to exist that make this a reality. Austerity is basically an EU policy, at least in terms of debt ratios and government spending. Nationalisation etc all become problematic whilst following EU single market rules. The EU would force any Labour government towards the centre and if you want to remain in the EU this pull would be mostly irresistible.

You realise by this metric most EU countries are much more liberal than most non EU countries. DUCY?

Yet the studies into such find no evidence of this.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...se-housing.pdf


https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/6857964.pdf

This is because wealthier natives move out.

This is so staggeringly wrong, there's no point trying to get past it.

a) there is no perfect access to some concrete reality impervious to our views from which we can make decisions (it highly dubious it's even a coherent idea but that's a bit too SMP). We don't know - not even close. The more expert/informed can do bit better than others but if any of them think they have some access to correct answers about some concrete reality then they're idiots.

b) even if there was somehow some concrete reality impervious to our views on it, it's a huge mistake for you not to realise that all anybody has is their views and so people with different views will come up with different answers to the same questions.

c) Our views depends heavily on our own individual experiences, education nature etc as well as the thing we are considering.

Failing to understand this will lead you to bewilderment and/or ridiculous conclusions

it was a bit of a snip on your part but obviously housing is fixed in the short term. As I said the problems have built up over decades of new labour and the tories and it's not going to be fixed overnight. None the less it has to be done.

It's not some simplistic issue of volume of houses. It's houses in areas with good access to jobs. The solution is not just building houses, it's also transport links, investments, wealth redistribution etc.

The point about immigration is that it increases the wealth of the country. Increased wealth helps us fix problems that cost money. Hence immigration helps.

If all you got is a horrible reaching for philosophy of truth then lol. You got nothing.

In terms of of this debate their are concrete realities, things that will 100% inhibit left wing economic policies, these things exist independently of your opinion of the EU.

Try again.

It's not about philosophical epistemology

You're simply wrong if you think you or anyone has access to some concrete reality impervious to your views that allows some certain answer to political problems. Not by a little bit - you're completely wrong.

Its nothing to do with that though. We are disputing positive claims, in which your claim to what something is is simply false, you can call black white, and then try the **** you are currently trying.

Its just so telling that you have gone down this path rather than try any actual valid counter argument. You have none, so you pull this bollox.

nah I'm just pointing out that your starting point is so wrong (both in obviousness and importance) that nothing useful can follow from it.

and no your not disputing my claim about the EU - my claim is about how others, who I disagree with, may see the EU. You are so hopelessly wrong about how people can see the EU differently (and hence reach different conclusions) that there's no room to proceed to the politics of it.

No you are just handwaving in a terribly weak and obvious way.

People can see the EU in lots of ways, wow, you have enlightened us all Sherlock. Really?

That does not change the realities of EU/Single market rules and there clash with a a radical left wing agenda. That is my starting point.

This is the claim you are not answering with your total reach to the stars.

For example.

The EU is legislating for railways to have more competition and making state monopoly of rail impossible.

Does not matter though, because people have different viewpoints.

Chezlaw ladies and gentlemen.

Yes best you stick to the silly posts. Note the dishonest rhetoric:

Recognising people see the EU differently in no way implies that the available facts about the EU do not matter.

Well this is indeed what you have been arguing.

Me: The EU works like this, these things concretely clash with a left wing agenda. (This is a statement of fact). Peoples opinions about the EU do not stop this being a reality.

You: Somehow arguing with the above.

No it isn't.

there is nothing concrete about how the EU will impact left wing policies that follows from some facts about how the EU works.

There is a lot more more than nothing, but it's a lot less than some conception of a concrete reality we have access to.

It is.

Anyway, lets count the hours till we get an actual response from Chez about my thesis and not some utterly lame handwave.

So far at 1H and 27m

oh no it isn't.

You got a response.

1min

how long till some music?

Now at 1H and 28M

If I can find music about lame handwaves I will post the loltubes.

In before the next handwave.

Not lame

Chez, its obvious to everyone,

You dont want to discuss the contradiction, so you pull this AIDS fest.

A new low even for you, and that is really saying something.

baloney.

You were totally wrong and when it was pointed out you went down the dishonesty rhetoric path.

now you're just trying to escalate in the face of not being taken seriously. I'm sure we can go much lower but may as well just enjoy some music until normal service is resumed.

Haha.

Yes I was totally wrong pointing out some facts about the EU and its economic policies and their clash with left wing policies and also observing that opinions about the EU dont change the existence of those facts.

Yes of course you do actually want to discuss the contradiction.

1H 40M

There's far too much serious politics to get worried about your silly rhetorical stuff. It's fun only until and unless you want to get back to some sort of serious discussion. You can address the points I actually made anytime you care to.

4 days, 3H, 37 mins

This is amazing.

You just you tore this whole discussion down a "rhetotical" path with your nonsence about peoples opinions.

My observations about the contradiction between left wing policies and EU single market rationales is entirely serious and on topic.

You will do anything to avoid actually discussing it though.

Its so painfully obvious why.

.

Rhetoric.

dishonest rhetoric about the dishonest rhetoric. well played sir.

Some better handwaving