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Brexit Referendum Brexit Referendum

12-07-2018 , 05:37 PM
Heard a decent analogy today. If Everton fans voted 52-48 to leave the Premier League, based on the promise that we'd be able to negotiate our own league with the likes of Barcelona and Bayern Munich, whilst still playing Liverpool and Man Utd twice a year, and also there would be fewer miserable Portuguese managers in the league and we'd get a £500m transfer warchest. And then after 2 years of withdrawal discussions it becomes clear (to those to whom it wasn't already obvious) that the promises were horse **** and we're just going to end up playing Sligo Town and Queen of the South every other week while Richarlison and Siggy get free transfers to Liverpool.. I for one would support a second vote.
12-07-2018 , 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by diebitter
Simple point: if you can't make a decent positive case for the EU, perhaps it's because the EU isn't very good.

Maybe some of its ideas like shared values, collaboration and common goals are what you like (it's what I like), but maybe its ways of working and the appearance that it is more about gaining greater levels of control over member states than good governance is the issue.

Maybe its current way of working is not fit for purpose, and deep down, a lot of people that support the EU for its virtues prefer to overlook its faults because there's no clear process to remedy them, and they know deep down the only way it can be fixed is by removing it and replacing it with a better model.
It's far more that all the ground was left to the anti-EU brigade for decades. It's tough to overturn that quickly. Even so the biggest problem is the lack of a leader with vision.
12-07-2018 , 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostOstrich
Heard a decent analogy today. If Everton fans voted 52-48 to leave the Premier League, based on the promise that we'd be able to negotiate our own league with the likes of Barcelona and Bayern Munich, whilst still playing Liverpool and Man Utd twice a year, and also there would be fewer miserable Portuguese managers in the league and we'd get a £500m transfer warchest. And then after 2 years of withdrawal discussions it becomes clear (to those to whom it wasn't already obvious) that the promises were horse **** and we're just going to end up playing Sligo Town and Queen of the South every other week while Richarlison and Siggy get free transfers to Liverpool.. I for one would support a second vote.
Don't knock Queen of the South! They're the only team mentioned in the bible you know...
12-07-2018 , 07:38 PM
News night was interesting tonight. Huge Brexit row between a rather snooty Times journalist and Alistair Campbell who accused her of talking nonsense, but mainly interesting for the former's claim that if/when May's deal is defeated she may create a second referendum with two options: her deal or Remain.
12-07-2018 , 08:42 PM
If there's any truth to that then may is toast. Even her trying to do a deal with labour for that 2nd ref in return for her winning the vote would put her in very serious jeopardy

Although you can tell when Alistair Campbell is lying, it's when he is still breathing.
12-07-2018 , 11:48 PM
May has been in very serious jeopardy for since the GE that brought DUP into her government.

I was actually surprised that she even stayed PM. The most probable explanation was, and still is, nobody wanted her job. Nobody wants to negotiate this Brexit thing because everyone knows there is no achievable "win" condition politically.

No Deal? Takes 2 years for every working neighborhood to turn because that's how long Europe will take to cut UK out of their supply chains. Soft Brexit or remain? Kiss conservative support good bye. Even Boris and Farage knew this. Why do you think they got the hell out of dodge so fast?

May has negotiated the EU deal and her own political career incredibly well, given the hand she was dealt with.

A referendum between Remain and May's Deal would actually be a pretty good idea for UK but if you think that's gonna happen, I got a bridge to sell. If May's gonna gamble, it's gonna be a general election where she campaigns on her deal.
12-08-2018 , 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi
News night was interesting tonight. Huge Brexit row between a rather snooty Times journalist and Alistair Campbell who accused her of talking nonsense, but mainly interesting for the former's claim that if/when May's deal is defeated she may create a second referendum with two options: her deal or Remain.
What an utter pig.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/464922...-brexit-debate

Portillo made a good point on This Week. Any further referendum that the electorate perceives as rigged could potentially have serious repercussions. Probably anything in-between destroying what little faith is left in our politicians, to what is going on in France right now.
12-08-2018 , 03:33 AM
He was a right prick.

The rest of that section was interesting though about remain needing a different narrative. I'd like to hear that narrative. Let's hear some positive things about the EU.

Personally, I'd definitely like to hear any clear plan of action that uses the EU rules to start agitating and pushing for thorough reform, for example. If that's beyond doing, I'd consider my view as vindicated that seat at the table is worthless compared to being able to do external trade deals...

(EU, as is, is going down toilet unless it fixes itself properly imo - May 2019 voting will make that loud and clear)

The lady was wrong about no deal shouldnt be a choice on any new ref. That's would be a total rig, and would kick off some right nasty ****.

Last edited by diebitter; 12-08-2018 at 03:58 AM.
12-08-2018 , 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
If there's any truth to that then may is toast. Even her trying to do a deal with labour for that 2nd ref in return for her winning the vote would put her in very serious jeopardy

Although you can tell when Alistair Campbell is lying, it's when he is still breathing.
It wasn't Campbell who said that. It was the Times Tory Remain journalist Jenni Russell and she rightly put him in his place for talking over her.

Last edited by jalfrezi; 12-08-2018 at 04:12 AM.
12-08-2018 , 05:39 AM
I know - just having a necessary dig at the ****. When people say they don't trust experts, he is a large part of what they mean.

I have a feeling that Russell got slightly confused and meant May fighting a GE on her deal if it failed rather than a referendum (which was a related slightly different point). Campbell is very good at putting people off their train of though, food and life in general.
12-08-2018 , 07:07 AM
good episode of Dead Ringers dropped yesterday

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0001g9v
12-08-2018 , 07:55 AM
diebitter is right that the eu works really well and it would probably have helped if more people made that case. it's all a bit late now though
12-08-2018 , 07:57 AM
it's not that different from "project fear" though. i mean, the reason you lose out by leaving is that the eu is good, so it's basically the same argument
12-08-2018 , 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostOstrich
Heard a decent analogy today. If Everton fans voted 52-48 to leave the Premier League, based on the promise that we'd be able to negotiate our own league with the likes of Barcelona and Bayern Munich, whilst still playing Liverpool and Man Utd twice a year, and also there would be fewer miserable Portuguese managers in the league and we'd get a £500m transfer warchest. And then after 2 years of withdrawal discussions it becomes clear (to those to whom it wasn't already obvious) that the promises were horse **** and we're just going to end up playing Sligo Town and Queen of the South every other week while Richarlison and Siggy get free transfers to Liverpool.. I for one would support a second vote.
You also would have to revise your entire thought process and the mindset that had permitted you to think that the league would be any good without Portuguese and Spanish and Italian managers.
12-08-2018 , 08:29 AM
objection
12-08-2018 , 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daca
it's not that different from "project fear" though. i mean, the reason you lose out by leaving is that the eu is good, so it's basically the same argument
This.
12-08-2018 , 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daca
diebitter is right that the eu works really well and it would probably have helped if more people made that case. it's all a bit late now though
I definitely didn't say the eu works really well btw. Anyone who keeps an ear on current events knows it lurches from crisis to crisis, and its ever-ready solution to its bad form is ALWAYS 'more EU'. I think its ways of working are terminally bad - its goals of cooperation and collaboration are fine though, and if it loosened the grip, lost its goal of federalisation/centralisation of almost everything, and actually implemented subsidiarity properly with a much lighter touch (Ie it should be doing the little stuff way way less, but provide the big stuff basics which countries can choose to build upon or not), it would be pretty good then.
12-08-2018 , 11:25 AM
EU will neogtiate says Prodi


Quote:
EU will negotiate if May loses Commons Brexit vote, says Prodi

Former EU politician, Romano Prodi, says a no-deal Brexit must be avoided.

The EU will come back to the negotiating table if parliament votes down Theresa May’s deal with Brussels, according to Romano Prodi, a former European commission president.

Prodi, who twice served as Italian prime minister and had Jean-Claude Juncker’s job until 2004, said that the EU needed to do everything it could to avoid the “economic catastrophe” of a no-deal Brexit.

On signing an agreement with the British prime minister last month, Juncker described the draft withdrawal treaty and accompanying political declaration on the future relationship as “the deal – the only deal possible”.

May has also said there is no scope for any further negotiation in Brussels if her deal is rejected when it comes to a vote in the Commons on Tuesday, and that the consequence of it being rejected would be “no deal or no Brexit”. The chancellor, Philip Hammond, described those who believed there could be a renegotiation as “delusional”.

But in an interview with the Observer, Prodi suggested it would still be possible to find a negotiated settlement in the increasingly likely event May suffers a heavy defeat in the Commons.

Asked how he expected the commission to respond after the vote, Prodi said: “Negotiate. We must keep free trade between us because it is in the British interests and European interest. The UK has no alternative – the EU is a large part of its trade. Always the problem of Northern Ireland, but it is possible. Common sense helps.”

On the EU’s insistence there could be no more negotiations, Prodi added: “Look, when the British parliament has still to vote you are obliged to be in this position. But then of course the day after you start dealing. This is politics.”

The options available to the EU’s 27 heads of state and government will nevertheless be curtailed when they meet on Thursday at the start of a two-day summit in Brussels, just two days after the meaningful vote in parliament.

There is a reluctance to open up the political declaration on the future relationship, given the difficulties the EU had in finding agreement on the terms set out in the 26-page document.

The November Brexit summit was just hours from being cancelled after Spain insisted on assurances about the fate of Gibraltar at the last minute. Further talks on that document could see it unravel as the EU’s member states seek to pursue their own interests.

There is also almost a consensus in Brussels that the withdrawal agreement, containing the most contentious part of the deal, the so-called backstop for avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland through keeping the UK in a customs union indefinitely, cannot be touched.

Elmar Brok, a senior German MEP and ally of the chancellor Angela Merkel, insisted that “there will be nothing” offered to May if she comes back after a defeat in parliament.

“The heads of state and government have said that this is the deal repeatedly and I have no reason to disbelieve them,” Brok added.

But Philippe Lamberts, a member of the European parliament’s Brexit steering group, who is also leader of the Green group, said the reality might be more nuanced.

“The only thing that could be significantly changed is the political declaration but that is not legally binding on the EU,” he said. “If the UK comes back and they want Norway-plus, then why not?”

Lamberts suggested that the British government could also return to the backstop proposal made in October by the EU, rejected by May for being a “dislocation” of the UK.

Under that plan, a UK-wide customs union would be avoided by simply keeping Northern Ireland in the customs union and the single market as the rest of the country withdrew. “If she has already lost the DUP votes, then maybe she can do that,” he said.

Guy Verhofstadt, the former prime minister of Belgium, who is the European parliament’s Brexit coordinator, said: “Whatever happens next week, I’m reassured that, based on the votes this week, there is no majority in the UK parliament for a disastrous no deal.”

Other possible ways forward include separate EU statements reiterating that the bloc does not want to trigger the backstop, and its intention for it only ever to be a temporary measure.

Prodi said he was surprised both by parliament’s rejection of May’s deal given the dangers of a cliff-edge Brexit, and by the clamour among some for a second Brexit referendum which he described as “dangerous”.

“You don’t know what will be the result,” he said. “The problem of Brexit is not a problem of the economy but a problem of identity and that problem of identity is still on the table. And because it is a problem of identity it is also difficult to have a solution where you have a free flow of migrants.”

“[A second referendum] will be nasty,” Prodi added. “It will be on migration because the British economy [since the referendum] suffered but not so much, not a tragedy. But a little less growth doesn’t change anything in debates about identity.”

12-08-2018 , 11:26 AM
Well I guess that pretty much guarantees a resounding defeat for May on Tuesday.
12-08-2018 , 12:24 PM
Just shows if someone with some spine was negotiating for the UK, we'd get a way better deal.
12-08-2018 , 12:25 PM
If May had any sense, she'd go to EU and say, 'OK give me a good deal or it's a referendum on Remain VS No Deal. Your call.'

Of course, an even better leader would be 'No deal or a much better deal. Your call.'
12-08-2018 , 12:27 PM
That might well be a subtext coming up.
12-08-2018 , 02:53 PM
Could someone give a Yank a Cliff-notes version of where the process is now? From the post above, is May successfully playing a game of chicken with the EU - and if so, is the EU likely to swerve? If Germany and France want to cut a deal, can one of the smaller countries refuse to go along and kill it? (I'm under the impression that the deal has to be unanimous, which seems to give a whole lot of leverage to that last hold out country?)

Or am I just a confused 'merican.

MM MD
12-08-2018 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jalfrezi
News night was interesting tonight. Huge Brexit row between a rather snooty Times journalist and Alistair Campbell who accused her of talking nonsense, but mainly interesting for the former's claim that if/when May's deal is defeated she may create a second referendum with two options: her deal or Remain.
If May's deal fails in the House it can't go to the country.

Last edited by 57 On Red; 12-08-2018 at 03:31 PM.
12-08-2018 , 03:26 PM
Of course they'll talk if parliament votes this down. And then they'll come back with something substantially the same because there really isn't anything substantial left to negotiate.

UK needs a de-facto remain in terms of economic arrangements. The very people (fishers, farmers, blue collar workers) that voted for Brexit need the EU more than even the remainers. The remainers are economically/socially mobile in industries that are far more easily exported (they can just move or telecommute.)

      
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