Great if PP haven't limited your winnings to a tenner per bet.

As a mythical great deal isn't part of Labour's narrative nor mine I'm not sure why we are discussing it.

You are presenting this as a choice between 2nd ref and GE + A50 extension claiming GE+A50 is a terrible idea. You are ignoring the fact that the likeliest outcome is Brexiting. If Brexit is as awful as you suggest then the problems associated with extending A50 pale into insignificance. On the one hand you are claiming this is a multigenerational harm to the UK but that extending the negotiating position with the possibility of a 2nd ref on a Labour negotiated deal is terrible.

Labour then has the chance to negotiate for a deal consistent with their 6 tests and offering it back to the public.

their 6 tests are basically BINO tho

Seeing as how no one who voted in the referendum knew anything much about what they were actually voting for (compare with manifestos in a GE) BINO isn't a betrayal, if that's your drift.

If you want more detail on what the public actually wants from a relationship with the EU, better ask them a more precise question.

One last go. The thing I'm saying is terrible is the labour party fighting a GE on the platform of extend article 50 and renegotiate

The reason I'm saying it's a terrible idea is because we are likely to be massacred.

The reason we are likely to be massacred is because a) the public dont believe some great deal will be achieved and b) they just want it over.

[I also want to remain and think any negotiated deal is a big mistake. Not as catastrophic as no-deal but still really big comapred to remaining. This is is nothign to do with the above argument]

Their may be other things that matter to you. There must be something you care about and just maybe it becomes an election issue. If not you then at least some proportion of ukip voters.

Erm the winning vote was 'Leave the European Union'. If it's BINO, do you see that is something that is complying to the instruction 'Leave the European Union'?

I don't.

And if you see it as complying, and I don't, do you think most of Britain will agree with you, or with me?

And do you think the press will agree with you or with me?

Excellent points.

If we are no longer members of the EU (signified by MEPs with voting rights), then yes we have left the EU regardless of which component bodies we may still be part of or aligned with.

Otherwise what do you mean by Brexit In Name Only? May's current agreement is a BINO in the eyes of hard line Brexiters.

And do you think most of the country will see it as having left the EU then?


and only hardline brexiters see it otherwise? Is that what you really think?

Just trying to get a measure of that you actually believe here, or how much of what you say is hopeful aspiration or wanting it to be so.

I want this deal to pass, just so there's a bit of stability and certainty for the next few years

--

end game is imo the same whatever happens: the JC experience finally comes to an end, someone normal takes over labour and runs on a centre-left platform with a promise to go back into europe, they win in a landslide, we end up back in with a few less perks

in the meantime, tories continue to wage their 30-plus year civil war over europe

I really don't know, but I expect public opinion has probably changed a lot due to 30 months of will-they-won't-they Brexit fatigue (which I'm going to call Bratigue) caused by unproductive posturing from our government and a growing understanding of the sheer complexity.

That's why we need a referendum.

Do you think most of the country will see it as having left the EU?

There isn't a notable experienced Labour MP who isn't a tarnished Blairite. Who are the potential centre-left MP candidates for this?

Most Brexit voters will measure success by the number of blokes called Zoltoy still working in the warehouse after we leave.

One racist wanker I work with will measure it by the number of young Eastern Europeans working in the bars he drinks in.

anyone. put all the non-brexitard, non hard left labour MPs in a big raffle and draw one: you have your next PM

its an auto win

the idea that anyone associated with blair/brown is tainted for life is not mainstream imo

i mean the tories will fight the next gen election with either a may type who never wanted it in the first place but somehow has to defend this fudged middle ground happy horse****, or a walking caricature such as his lordship jacob rees muffington mogg the third

random woman off the street with a red rose stapled to her top can batter either of those offerings with the simple message of 'everything that is wrong with your life is down to brexit, vote for me and i will get us back in'

if the tories put up may/remainer type then UKIP will have some muppet up there saying we should exit from the solar system, and they'll cleave off tons of tory votes. and if they put the caricature up, most people will have a good look and come to realise that climate change denial, abortion banning and fox hunting being made mandatory in state schools = not great & they'll vote for the normal person

These 5 people in cabinet plotting openly to get the text changed have a completely ******ed goal.

she's already agreed it principle surely and even to presume she will change a single letter now it's heading for sign-off is utterly ridiculous.

They should either resign and put the boot in or STFU imo.

ofc it'll probably be JC vs his worshipful jacob rees bigglesworth hummington asquith the eleventeenth earl of bertshire and i'll have to move to.. well not america obviously, but somewhere

A few less perks means adopting the Euro. **** that. Brexiteers have really ****ed up any leverage we had to do what we like.

The platform is obviously going to be about the provision of public services, public ownership and the rest of the manifesto I'm not suggesting making it a single topic election but the fact remains that if May's government falls before Brexit and Labour win Labour will have to address Brexit.

Cotbyn's comments in response to the budget on tax contradicted the later statement from McDonnell.

We definitely disagree on the polls. Heading towards Brexit and a Tory party that is shambolic and tearing itself apart then I'd expect Labour to be opening up a fairly healthy lead but they're not. There are periods in the past when Labour were polling around 50% in opposition and had a massive lead over the Tories. With regards to Corbyn specifically he has been polling very badly personally in terms of who people believe would make the best PM. He's always behind May and 'Don't Knows'

Sound but he delivered the largest increase in Labour votes and share election to election than any leader since Atlee.

So when we consider polls we should also consider results, we should consider just how roundly Miliband was beaten, just how well Corbyn over performed the polls at the start of the election campaign on a respect the referendum platform.

True, but what makes this a little different from previous Labour leaderships is how they defied the polls in the last GE, turning from also-rans to genuine contenders once people heard their non-extremist manifesto articulated in person.

If they've put the (pretty bad) antisemitism chapter behind them they should be able to increase their share of the vote, though it's not clear how high Corbyn's popularity ceiling is.

may delivered the biggest increase in tory vote since thatcher '79

both a result of ukip falling out of its own arsehole