I'm just not convinced smaller independent countries are struggling in this global market.

Irelands biggest exporter ($21 billion) doesn't actually produce anything in Ireland.

When Google sell advertising in the UK, several European Countries and even Australia, that becomes an Irish Export (for tax avoidance purposes).

Apple and Microsoft do the same thing.

So assuming that the exports are included in GDP, just those 3 companies "export" almost $50 billion between.

The total GDP is only $210 billion so it is distorted by around 25%. That doesn't even take account of other corporates doing the same thing.

Basically Irelands GDP Per Capita is a nonsense figure.

i mean most of those countries are in the single market or in the case of switzerland basically in it.

but it's not that you cant survive without it. it's just that it'll make you poorer. and the uk leaving will make both the uk and us poorer.

in general classical liberals against the eu are the dumbest of all because they eu is great for us and almost* all the liberal arguments against it is just made up for the occasion by people trying to justify their reactionary feelings

Uh no. Brexiters are are very recently formed group of people defined by a single common belief; the other groups you mention aren't.

Switzerland is a member of the single market, and has just had to climb down on freedom of movement to preserve that essential status.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ations-with-eu

Most people can't afford to be poorer. They'll lose their homes. They'll lose everything.

Standard removal of powers from a sovereign state to central, unaccountable (to the Swiss) authority because there's no negotiating, there's just take it or leave it.

Leave it is the only way not to ultimately completely lose national sovreignity.

A lot has been lost already.

I really should stop checking this thread out now and again.

"completely lose national sovereignty" - what the hell? If you exclude EU laws that have no impact, the majority of laws are not EU related. Those that are relate to things like workers minimum rights, equality, etc.

Oh, and there is free movement.

"A lot has been lost already" - this is why remainers tend to see Brexiters as exenophobes. What does that even mean? The UK can repeal any EU related law it likes, so truckers can start working 70 hours again if the UK want etc.

Oh, but we can't send all migrants back. This seems to be the only point of the statement that actually makes sense.

Nope its a decision for every country if it wants that or not. Its not removal. You can always choose. You just cant stand it that you cant get the one thing without the others. And thats called negotiating. The EU offers you this for access. You can accept, decline or have enough power to make a counter. What do you even expect? The question is why would Switzerland accept the terms if the world outside the EU according to Brexiteers is so much better? You act like we forced you to join the EU. Your fellow countrymen elected the people who wanted to go that route. But democracy only seems good if election/poll results go your way it seems.

Wow, pot kettle black.

More evidence of what people like Redwood are really about.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics...g-britain-down

PESCO: EU paves way to defense union

Awesome, another clear reason brexit is best for all imo. EU can continue its integration and removal of government at national level without the pesky complaints from the UK about democratic representation!

Yeah sure the economic and political isolation of Britain, the breakup of Nato. The split of Europe from the US. None of these things are making Vlad Pootin cream himself.

You and your brexit/Trumpist cronies are going to set back the course of western civilisation by decades. Well done.

Dude, I'd be all about the EU if it was about trade, standards, and sovereign nations interacting. Unfortunately, it's way, way more about political union and ideology.

If not, please explain the rationale behind the euro.

No, that's why we need to be in there, as Sir Humphrey explained, to stop the French and German political classes running everything the way they want. We can't do that from outside, and only we can do it. Plus we had a very good deal going, obtained with considerable effort, and we certainly aren't going to get a better one.

You think the reason to leave was because people expected a better deal?

As usual, some remainers continue to miss the point.

Another stumble forward to remaining ...

Parliament is to be given a take-it-or leave-it vote on the final Brexit deal before the UK leaves the EU.

Deal is still favorite but if the government thinks it cannot get it through parliament then the option of letting the people decide will become increasingly attractive to them. General election or 2nd referendum (or both) is now more likely. As winning a 2nd referendum is the only way we can remain, anything that makes it more likely is good news to me.

re PESCO, this and more is obviously all happening.in various forms - the EU is a project of political union. Why the remain side, tries to persuade voters that it isn't happening, isn't about sharing sovereignty etc etc instead of explaining why the EU as a good thing is completely beyond me. It's created a bizarre situation where it's the leave camp who were far more credible because they correctly say it's a political union and they don't want us to be part of it.

Yeah John Redwood gets it as he tells the rich to get their money out and wait for the firesale. He didn't say that to his constituents of course.

Agree. It would have been way more positive than the 'oh nothing will change unless we want it to change' disingenuous nonsense. That whole argument is completely laughable and at best, self-deluded, at worst, a flat lie.

The current arguments for remaining remain petty. Every day, it's 'oh if we leave, we lose X or lose Y'. And my internal response is 'yes, but we retain democratic accountability'... which pretty much trumps every counter-argument.

There is never a big argument presented to the public about a big vision reason for staying in the EU, it's all still minor Project Fear...

Of course, if they did present a big picture argument about submerging the national identities into the EU vision of a European identity for the good of all, that might be treated as completely unacceptable, even among a good chunk of remainers. But it would be more admirable and give a clearer vision of the future than the petty, bitty propaganda war from the likes of the Guardian and Independant that daily feels moe and more anti-UK, rather than pro-EU.

Who needs economic prosperity/workers rights etc, when you can not have it and also the added bonus of giving the unelected House of Lords more power. Wonderful.

The defense force is voluntary, not much different from the already existing coorporation between defense forces but somehow to Diebitter this is another powergrab of the EU. It is not like any of the individual small countries have a credible army to begin with.

This is how the National Front etc talk - it's just misplaced jingoistic nationalism. If you don't support XYZ then you are anti-British. Actually, no, those that actually care about the country rather than their own hang ups and who are battling for a better result, including trying to unmask the disgusting Govt lies etc, are not anti-UK. That really is a terrible statement.

We keep whatever workers rights if parliament decide on them. If people don't like changes, they can vote for someone else. THAT'S THE KEY.

We're not relying on the kindness of strangers... do you see the problem with relying on the kindness and good intentions of an organisation where democratic accountability is drastically curtailed? Are you aware that giving people power without accountability has this tendency to create secrets, corruption and bad governance?

And the HOL needs to go, obv.

back to 'brexit voters == racists' are we?

Of course we are. Why would it change now. It's clearly beyond the grasp of some remainers to actually see the other side, when it's easier to simply stoop to demonising the people that don't agree with them.


Cmon, even the more rabid remainer has to concede the drip drip of 'everything bad is due to brexit, everything good is despite brexit' in the likes of the Guardian and Independent has the unedifying stench of the terminally butt-hurt.