Ok, that at least explains some of the anger. I guess my counterpoint would be that a lot of Brits do not see the EU as Europe. We feel in some ways the EU has subverted Europe into its own agenda.

I'm from London, born and bred. I always thought London was bigger than just a European city. I felt it was a world city. I grew up with other kids from Africa, Australia, India and the Caribbean, so you may see my point.

i dont really see your point here at all.

sure, the eu is not the same as europe, but it is very real ties to europe that's being severed. and london is not just an european city, and nobody wants to prevent it from being a global city too, but it is also an european city.

and yeah obviously people who (rightfully) see the single market as far more economically useful than any trade deal are sad to see a big part of it get replaced by some dumb deal.

We thought it couldn't but it decided on the hoof that QMV could suddenly be applied to these issues.

That's why the far right is in ascendancy all over the EU.

Are you saying you want to oppose France and Germany forming a federal government (if that's their ambition)?

Well dont start wars on lies then. What has the UK done to improve the Situation in Syria to reduce the numbers of refugees?

Stop the "we" nonsense. You don't speak for me and anyone with an optimistic view of the future and not a bigoted isolationist one.

Stop the 'anyone with a blahblahblah' nonsense then.

i guess to some intolerance to different viewpoints is okay if you call those you disagree with 'bigots' and demonise them with a little label. Pot. Kettle. Black.


I have an optimistic view of the future too. It's on the outside of a protectionist, undemocratic EU.

I don't object to you having an opinion, I object to you assuming that you speak for anyone else than yourself.

edit for diebitter It is my opinion that brexiters are bigoted and isolationist, to suck it up.

Was not aware that the United "States" of America was run by a commitee.

No reason to assume any federalised Europe would be that undemocratic.

Anyway, a federalised Europe will never evaaar happen and you can bet your Ikes on that.

The might be a small number of political elites who want this, but also plenty who dont and those that dont can easily mobilise popular support to their cause as we have just seen. The EU is even more unpopular in France than the UK.

That said to be a priori against a federalised Europe with no idea how that would be configured administratively is simple bigotism.

Are there any political configurations in which you would not be opposed to a federalised Europe, configurations that you perceived to be more democratic?

I hope you do realise when you claim you speak for 'anyone with a blahblah' which you imply here, you are doing exactly what you are complaining about here, right?

I'm sure when you talk your viewpoint, you think a certain number of people share it, right? We'll, that goes both ways.

Well an instable post-war Iraq was the perfect breeding ground for ISIS. They conquered parts of Syria as well and commited horrible crimes everywhere.

Yeah the excuse of the "safe countries" is very popular and I know that's how the rules are. But countries like Libanon and Greece aren't the richest countries around but the rich countries want them to help all immigrants without assistance. If the UK or Germany would have given money or helped building refugee camps which aren't hell holes then you can complain but since everyone is just talking about "closing borders" and doesnt want to give help we shouldn't be surprised that the refugees try to get to a safe haven with acceptable living conditions and maybe even a future.

In fifteen years it will look essentially identical.

Lol Britain has specific responsibility for the Syrian refugees. We literally made isis what it is today.

I'd happily trade people like you away in return for some Syrians.

You don't share British values of helping those in need and fixing the mistakes you made. I don't know what you are but you're not British. Are you American? Maybe you were born here but you don't understand here.

What are you talking about? Refugees cannot freely enter the UK. Many of those who want to are stucked in camps in the north of France, because French authorities have agreed to control your border for you.

Are you talking about the quota system that Merkel proposed in 2015? It doesnt concern the UK.

So you are for administrative zones dictated by completely arbitrary lines?

I assume you support the break up of the Union?

If you have a valid viewpoint which they can't counter argue against you will be called a bigot/racist or old & dumb Sara.

Of course if you ask them why the EU sees fit to discriminate between EU and Non-EU citizens they are ok with that......they obviously like some discrimination.

Or maybe ask them why they feel the decision to vote Brexit by the majority of voters in the country should be ignored. You know, why democracy should not prevail.

Whose gimmick account are you, out of interest? The fact that you're agreeing with richdog narrows the field considerably.

You have democracy. You only had to make minor concessions to aid the functioning of the Single Market.

btw our democracy has brought us a leader who wants to record every page you click on the internet, every word you write and wants to ban encryption.

This entire "Brussels rule" argument is utterly bogus and and absurd reason to damage our economy for decades.

god knows what will happen to the eurozone, but non-euro eu will most likely be essentially the same. the fear of the united states of europe is mostly paranoid nonsense.

Check wiki on the EPP. Point 1 of the EPP priorities for the EU:

EUROPEAN POLITICAL UNION


Seems the EPP don't share your views.

So if the whole of Europe, or just say Germany and France, spoke English and ate fish and chips you would have no problem with a federated system loosely equivalent to the USA model?

Yeah ofc you bring up your straw man again. Every bilateral deal discriminates others who didn't get the same deal. And there are reasons for that. If you really suggest a free trade deal with China is a good thing then you have no fkn idea how it will destroy the UK and the few remaining industries you have.
You dont want immigrants at all but you have no balls to say so because you dont want to be called a racist instead you are looking for stupid arguments which are largely simplified. v

This. Also applies to MaryDecember or w/e the gimmick account is called.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...ng-seda-report

Problem: UK working class is struggling because of growing inequality
Solution: Distance yourself from the countries that are most successful in combating inequality

It is funny that even after adjusting for the brexit hit, UK growth is still predicted to be better than Germany and France.