@diebitter & co:
Do you think it would be democratic if the EU caved in and allowed the UK to access the single market without free movement of workers, even if there is a solid majority against a deal like that among the remaining members?

there's plenty of compromise and the uk has/had a bunch of opt outs* too. there's no compromise on free movement and a few other key achievements because that would be betrayal of everything that makes europe great. not allowing other member countries' citizens to be treated as 2nd class is something worth fighting for even if you lose at times because the neanderthals hate it.

Huh? Asking for a passport at a border makes someone a 2nd class citizen? If an African, say, rocked up an airport in your country, is him needing to show a passport treating him like a 2nd class citizen then?

lol.

you get that when people talk about free movement they dont mean passport control, right? that schengen membership and border control is optional?

free movement is the right to enter and work in the country after you have shown your passport. and yeah clearly a citizen of an african country gets treated as 2nd class.

yeah, but having restricted freedom of movement means passports, obviously. Hey, you were the one that brought up freedom of movement as something that stops people being 2nd class citizens or some such stuff.

Dude you believe in freedom of movement, I don't really care about it, other than I think a country should be able to choose control of it or not. And if it's an EU member, it should have penalties if it imposes that - rather than this childish 'you're either all or nothing' nonsense. I think in a mature system of partnerships, then everything should be negotiable as long as it's respectful of basic rights of individuals in their own countries. If you don't want one of the responsibilities as a country, then a penalty should be incurred. Money, I'm talking.

Personally, I wanted Britain to be able to negotiate trade with other countries directly when those countries have no agreements with the EU (yeah I get why agreements as a block are important once an EU agreement is in place). And I'd expect the UK to have to pay a penalty for that privilege.

As the EU seem to demand all or nothing to play in its sandpit, then what choice is there but stay or leave?

Let's face it, an awful lot of Brits are not true believers in ze EU ambitions.

Good thing your team cuts funding for education and restricts access to birth control!

lol "my team"

as if giving even more money to public schools will help
and I'm not a social conservative so don't try to pin that one on me

No.No.No. The UK is not a special snowflake and the rest of the EU does not have to bend over backwards and pander to their every whim.
You are the one continually bringing up concerns about undemocratic behavior. You can't have it both ways. When the majority decides something then it is not up to a single member state to opt out of regulations they don't like. You can't get "EU a la carte".
You don't like it? You want out? Fine but don't pretend the other 27 member states should have catered to the UK even more to the point of making itself obsolete.

So you're happy with your country discriminating against non EU citizens or you want your government to allow freedom of movement for everyone?

this line of arguments gets dumber and dumber every time you try it.

the eu securing rights for citizens of member states = good.

granting more rights to non-citizens = also good.

this isnt hard.

daca

The issue is maybe in the UK we see a well-qualified African == well-qualified German. Both should be doing the same things to be allowed to work in the UK. (and those things should be easy to get through, if your skills are needed). We respect Germans, French etc but dont see them as super special awesome. Individuals can be awesome, not nationalities.

You guys don't see it that way. At the moment a skill-less migrant > well-qualified African/Indian/other non-Euro in the current rules.

I want the UK to be a global player, not a little bit of fortress EU. I don't mind being part of ze EU if necessary, but not in a way that hobbles the UK to being open to business with the world. If the EU dawdles along trying to set up a trade deal for X years, I don't see why the more dynamic members can't do a deal in the meantime with such a country - but I'd be happy if such a deal expires once EU agrees terms... Might actually light a fire on those people working for the EU to actually get on with dealmaking and stop pissing about.

So, lol at us being little Englanders when you are little Eus.

We are bursting to start proper business with the world


Farewell, adieu, auf wiedersehen!

nothing stops you from allowing well-qualified non-eu citizen to work/live in the uk. go ahead. the eu does nothing to discourage you from that.

the only thing that stops it is that all those people that want to end freedom of movement in the eu also want to see the number of non-eu immigrants slashed. and those people vote.

you are really missing the point.

Yeah the EU is only preventing you from making it harder for eu migrants, not to make it easier for non EU migrants.

And the migration freedom for EU migrants goes both ways. UK citizens have the same freedom migrating to other member states.

i pointed out several pages ago bitters utter hypocrisy of complaining that the EU isnt democratjc AND that the UK doesnt get to veto EU decisions.

Its clear that Diebitter is a bot.

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"It's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it."

The EU can never be democratic because it doesn't have a demos. Nobody has answered this post here:

Best predictors for highschool graduation, finding full time employment, and early pregnancy too.

Because it's stupid.

EU elections already have European parties with candidates that travel to multiple EU countries. It is clear EU elections are becoming transnational.

Your thought process is basically Europeans don't think themselves as Europeans so there could never be democracy in the EU. The existence of hundreds of millions of EU voters and transnational campaigning suggests otherwise.

So are you in favour of free movement for all non EU citizens? I can't decipher your code.

Make it easy for us thickies, a simple yes or no will suffice. Thanks.

this is still too dumb. i would like easier immigration for non-eu citizens because limits are discrimination, but open borders for everyone are not realistic, least of all politically.

but what happens to eu citizens doesnt affect non-eu citizens and less discrimination against people from poland is not in itself more discrimination against people from brazil.

This doesn't make any sense.

Of course what happens to eu citizens affects non eu citizens.

Because there is free movement for eu citizens this results in limits on non-eu citizens being imposed - because as you say open borders for everyone is not realistic.

free movement for eu citizens is a massive benefit. it doesnt make immigration from outside the eu harder or create practical limits.

and end of free movement is not going to lead to a push for immigration from the rest of the world. all the same people will still think there are too many immigrants like they always do.