Ask Einbert About Coming Back from the Dead and Becoming a Communist - Page 6 - Politics and Economics

I think my terminology is right here and free markets are not the same as capitalism and they predate it by a lot, and those laws are antithetical to free markets, but not to capitalism. That said, I don't think capitalists in general block things like online poker, but specific capitalists with too much power. Also, it isn't just capitalists, but special interests. Labor unions have opposed online poker as well.

I assume when people here are arguing in favor of capitalism they are talking about free markets, not state-sponsored corporatism.

11-06-2017 , 12:55 PM

#127

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmgGlutten!

Yes, let's have communism! Let Trumps kids plan the entire economy with a "Bigly 5 year plan"... this will be great!

You may be surprised to discover that the children of the Romanovs played a very small role in planning the Soviet economy

11-06-2017 , 12:56 PM

#128

FlyWf

It's the other way

Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 58,097

Quote:

Originally Posted by .Alex.

I assume when people here are arguing in favor of capitalism they are talking about free markets, not state-sponsored corporatism.

Sounds like a pie in the sky idealist to me, saying that capitalism can work we just need to try it with the right people.

11-06-2017 , 12:56 PM

#129

campfirewest

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

This Soviets-stopped-the-Nazis argument needs a little more context. Sure they eventually stopped the Nazis when the Nazis turned on them, but they were allied with the Nazis against the Poles when WWII started and certainly contributed far more to Nazi crimes than any other non-Axis nation. Avoidance of human suffering is much less coincidental than you think.

They also engineered the Ukrainian famine in the 30's which has estimates of 6-7 million killed.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

11-06-2017 , 12:58 PM

#130

.Alex.

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,672

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmgGlutten!

You need capitalism and then you just guarantee everyone basic human needs like food, healthcare, and shelter through taxation to create a more even society. Solved.

fyp but basically this.

11-06-2017 , 12:59 PM

#131

raradevils

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bobman0330

Also let's not forget about the "Lend-Lease" act which contributed close to $130 billion worth of military goods and supplies to support the Soviet Unions fighting of the Nazis.

11-06-2017 , 01:03 PM

#132

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by campfirewest

They also engineered the Ukrainian famine in the 30's which has estimates of 6-7 million killed.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

That was very anti-communist of them. It was imperialist and classist as they took everything from Ukrainian peasants and gave it to Russian industrial workers.

11-06-2017 , 01:06 PM

#133

Rococo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Workers control Mondragon a large advanced technology industrial company with 88k people operating and trading in the global economy. Worker control does not necessarily mean central planning of whole industries and economies or any sort of dictatorship.

(I just found the Emilia-Romagna region in Italy, which surrounds Bologna, has 40% of it's GDP from worker owned coops. In Bologna 2 out of 3 people are members of a cooperative.)

I confess that I am relatively ignorant about how European cooperatives work.

If Amazon had been like Mondragon, would lower level employees would have had a large say in whether to buy Whole Foods, pursue drone-based delivery, etc? That sounds so chaotic, much like submitting every government action to a referendum would be chaotic.

11-06-2017 , 01:07 PM

#134

.Alex.

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,672

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

Sounds like a pie in the sky idealist to me, saying that capitalism can work we just need to try it with the right people.

Well sure the fallibility of human nature is an unresolved issue that both sides face and why we're here in the first place. I'm just saying that corporations writing their own laws is just as inherent (or lack thereof) to capitalism as 5 year plans and mass famines are to communism.

11-06-2017 , 01:11 PM

#135

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Landowners getting to write their own laws on their land is inherent to what ACists call stateless capitalism.

11-06-2017 , 01:14 PM

#136

stinkubus

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 4,422

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmgGlutten!

Yes, let's have communism! Let Trumps kids plan the entire economy with a "Bigly 5 year plan"... this will be great!

The biggest rent seeking industries (pharma, banking, arms, oil and gas) should be nationalized.

11-06-2017 , 01:22 PM

#137

microbet

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When a bunch of the most heinous mass atrocities in the history of the world happen within about a 20 year time span and all over the globe, it's something other than simply communism or capitalism.

11-06-2017 , 01:26 PM

#138

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Rococo

I don't know about specific decisions, but management is elected by company-wide vote. Some issues like pay changes are voted on like referendums. (Mondragon in particular. I saw a documentary on it. I don't know about any others and I suppose they all have their own rules. Most worker coops are quite small though.)

Last edited by microbet; 11-06-2017 at 01:48 PM.

11-06-2017 , 01:30 PM

#139

microbet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stinkubus

The biggest rent seeking industries (pharma, banking, arms, oil and gas) should be nationalized.

Perhaps, but nationalizing politicians might solve some of this.

11-06-2017 , 01:31 PM

#140

.Alex.

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 5,672

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Landowners getting to write their own laws on their land is inherent to what ACists call stateless capitalism.

Is anyone besides leavesofliberty arguing for ACism?

One of the main problems with ACism is exactly that it overvalues property rights at the expense of liberty. Taken to its logical conclusion it essentially becomes a might makes right philosophy.

11-06-2017 , 02:15 PM

#141

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,204

Does Communism allow Lebron James or Rachel Maddow to get anywhere as rich as they are?

11-06-2017 , 02:17 PM

#142

microbet

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Einbert probably hasn't thought about how it might affect his liberal heroes.

11-06-2017 , 02:22 PM

#143

Trolly McTrollson

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The sportsball industry is probably not the best example of the wonders of capitalism.

11-06-2017 , 02:47 PM

#144

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,204

Hi Einbert,

There is a lesson that I hope you learned from this thread. When you propose a scheme to a group of folks who are very much in favor of those with large bankrolls divesting much of it to help the less fortunate, make sure the scheme doe not include those folks themselves doing much of the divesting.

11-06-2017 , 03:07 PM

#145

SuperUberBob

Not interesting enough

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 48,217

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenrice1

It is appalling that a guy with a Hammer and Sickle avatar is able to post like it is no big deal. There is no moral difference between that avatar and a Swastika. None.

There are no good communists, just like there are no good white supremacists and Nazis. Communism is the greatest evil in human history. A hundred million people died at the hands of their Communist government in the 20th Century. Every single person is a slave under Communist rule.

There is nothing redeeming about communism. It isn't just an efficiency problem. Communism is a human rights violation. Property rights are fundamental human rights.

Slavery and Nazism are apparently not as bad as communism. Wow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenrice1

No. You don't have any examples.

Slavery has nothing to do with capitalism. Not even a little bit. There is no connection in ideology or even a historical connection. However, every person who has lived under a Communist regime is a slave.

It has everything to do with capitalism. Slavery existed because buying and owning black people was cheaper and easier than any other alternative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenrice1

Okay? All of that is true. And yet, the country is still significantly better off today than it otherwise would be.

Going from hyperinflation under a Marxist regime to prosperity with a brutal despot isn't going to be a smooth ride.

So the ends justify the means?

Quote:

Originally Posted by leavesofliberty

No, that would be taking things too seriously. The story is that einbert joined a social club at a local university or community college. And it's adorable. No one takes seriously the position of the abolition of free enterprise.

This is how I envision einbert changed

Quote:

Originally Posted by campfirewest

They also engineered the Ukrainian famine in the 30's which has estimates of 6-7 million killed.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ukra.html

Nothing compared to Great Leap Forward where 36 million people died from starvation during Maoist rule.

11-06-2017 , 05:33 PM

#146

lenC

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

That was very anti-communist of them. It was imperialist and classist as they took everything from Ukrainian peasants and gave it to Russian industrial workers.

It's funny how the Soviet Union displayed anti-communist, imperialist foreign policy on pretty much every hot button geopolitical issue that took place during the countries existence and it's not like they were repeatedly critiqued for it by communists in other countries. But Marx said that's what the capitalists do, so that can't be true.

11-06-2017 , 05:51 PM

#147

ShallowMalePig

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 215

Anyone trying to disassociate slavery from capitalism can **** right off.

Quote:

The photograph is by Alice Seeley Harris, the man’s name is Nsala. Here is part of her account (from the book “Don’t Call Me Lady: The Journey of Lady Alice Seeley Harris”): He hadn’t made his rubber quota for the day so the Belgian-appointed overseers had cut off his daughter’s hand and foot. Her name was Boali. She was five years old. Then they killed her. But they weren’t finished. Then they killed his wife too. And because that didn’t seem quite cruel enough, quite strong enough to make their case, they cannibalized both Boali and her mother. And they presented Nsala with the tokens, the leftovers from the once living body of his darling child whom he so loved. His life was destroyed. They had partially destroyed it anyway by forcing his servitude but this act finished it for him. All of this filth had occurred because one man, one man who lived thousands of miles across the sea, one man who couldn’t get rich enough, had decreed that this land was his and that these people should serve his own greed. Leopold had not given any thought to the idea that these African children, these men and women, were our fully human brothers, created equally by the same Hand that had created his own lineage of European Royalty.

11-06-2017 , 06:00 PM

#148

ShallowMalePig

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 215

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenrice1

India would almost certainly be better off under British rule than it is now.

This says nothing about Indians, but it says a lot about you in that it reveals you as the kind of person who'd be completely OK with the rape and murder of his family, as long as the per capita income of your country was high enough.

'Better off.' Wow.

11-06-2017 , 06:22 PM

#149

Louis Cyphre

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Quote:

Originally Posted by microbet

Given where China was in 1948 how rich do you think you could have made it by 2017? The central planning of Mao was fubar during the Cultural Revolution, but the massive state planning and intervention since the 70s has done pretty well. It has not been pure communism, but it's a long long way from Milton Friedman.

Results improved when China moved away from communism and towards capitalism. It's not a far out idea that China might be better off if they adopted free market ideas earlier and/or on a larger scale.
Capitalism is only problematic if it lacks sufficient safeguards against abuse. The same is true for any other system though.

11-06-2017 , 06:28 PM

#150

microbet

Solar Powered

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 57,077

Quote:

Originally Posted by lenC

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but there were lots of communists in the US and Western Europe and many/most of them disassociated with the party because of Stalin and such actions.

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