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2016 Presidential Election Thread: TRUMP vs. Hillary SMACKDOWN 2016 Presidential Election Thread: TRUMP vs. Hillary SMACKDOWN
View Poll Results: The 45th President of the United States of America will be
Hillary
332 46.63%
TRUMP
190 26.69%
In to watch it burn
161 22.61%
Bastard
73 10.25%
im tryin to tell you about ****in my wife in the *** and youre asking me these personal questions
57 8.01%

08-18-2016 , 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweep single
LOL!!! Statues of naked Trump all over the country complete with micro penis. That is great!

NSFW
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b034dc73260c94
08-18-2016 , 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuffle
He had a mandate and his party controlled Congress the first two years.
They only had a Senate supermajority for a 49 days, though between July 7, 2009 when Al Franken was sworn in until August 25th when Ted Kennedy died.

Obama used up all his political capital getting the ACA passed.
08-18-2016 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dessin d'enfant
This is apparently standard, which I found surprising. If the president is popular a few years later way more people claim to have voted for him and vice versa if his popularity drops.

Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised, we had that guy here claiming to be an Obama voter, who was considering Trump, but mentioned before that he voted for McCain. I assumed all these people were purposely lying to play the classic "I'm a lifelong liberal who just now is jumping ship because of Obama/Hillary/Kerry" but maybe they're genuinely delusional.
It's I supose a bit suprising that you find this suprising. You may be a bit delusional if you think most people (includign ourselves) dont have somewhat delusional memories - it's how memories work. It's also related to how people change and how political debate makes a real difference and is an important part of progresive politcs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjshabado
There's a certain type of poster that does very poorly on 2+2 (or I assume any online community) in large part because their ability to say contradictory things over time to try to make their point or build their image is easy to catch when everything is written down and searchable.

But just because they are obviously bad here doesn't mean they don't have relatively successful careers. Because it's a lot harder to get caught in your many lies - particularly by the people above you who are most responsible for your career success.
One day have a serious think about the merits of allowing poeple to chnage from what you think they meant in the past (which may or may not be accurate) to what they now say they believe.

When it's in a progressive direction then consider that encouraging that change is good. When it's in a regressive direction (which is significantly rarer) then maybe trying to tie them to some past image may be the better approach.

Last edited by chezlaw; 08-18-2016 at 06:51 PM.
08-18-2016 , 07:23 PM
Schmitz is hitting the fan.
08-18-2016 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuffle
Liberalism advocates, if not economic equality for all, than at least from my perspective more equal economic opportunities for all. The current economic and monetary policies in this country are making society less equal. Monetary policy is literally transferring wealth from the middle class to the wealthy. It is a statistical proof that economic inequality in the U.S. (in fact virtually the entire western world) has reached unprecedented levels and it is railed against by liberals all the time. This phenomenon did not happen by magic or coincidence or chance. It is the direct result of economic and monetary policy carried out by many regimes over many years, including the Obama administration in the U.S. at present.
You keep saying "monetary policy," but it's unclear what you mean by that. If you mean actual monetary policy--interest rates and money supply--then you don't know what you're talking about. You think near zero level interest rates help the wealthy?

Much more likely causes of wealth inequality are the demise of unions, taxes and a minimum wage not indexed to inflation.

Quote:
Obama's administration moved to destabilize Syria in order to force regime change. The result has been hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths, millions of refugees, and a terrorist state.

What about Libya? Egypt? etc. The U.S. has played a part in each.
These places were already experiencing civil war before the US did anything.
Quote:
Extra judicial drone killings have risen exponentially under Obama.
They have increased. Certainly not "exponentially."
Quote:
Tell me again how great Obama has been compared to Bush?
Well, civilian casualties in Iraq are ~100 times the total civilian casualties for drone strikes under Obama--even under the worst estimates.

Quote:
Where did I blame him for racism? I said he's not a strong leader and hasn't done anything to fix the problem. As a result of his ineffective leadership, a problem that is not his fault has become significantly worse.
Saying that the problem of racism became worse because of Obama IS blaming Obama.

Quote:
You have to be able to pay for things. As Microbet and I were discussing,the U.S. does this by raping and killing and plundering other countries' resources.
This is stupid. US wars cost way more money than they bring in. And how do they make money from raping and killing? You see, this is just stupid rhetoric. It's what you think a liberal might say, but it's incoherent.

Quote:
We steal from our kids' piggy banks. Right-wingers justify it their ideological way, and left wingers justify it their ideological way-- but at the end of the day, you have to pay for what you spend, and we pay for our profligate spending by stealing from other people and future generations.

There is nothing 'liberal' about stealing from one group of people to handout to another.
Taxes, borrowing and Social Security as "stealing" is straight-up anarcho-capitalist rhetoric.
08-18-2016 , 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chezlaw
It's I supose a bit suprising that you find this suprising. You may be a bit delusional if you think most people (includign ourselves) dont have somewhat delusional memories - it's how memories work. It's also related to how people change and how political debate makes a real difference and is an important part of progresive politcs.



One day have a serious think about the merits of allowing poeple to chnage from what you think they meant in the past (which may or may not be accurate) to what they now say they believe.

When it's in a progressive direction then consider that encouraging that change is good. When it's in a regressive direction (which is significantly rarer) then maybe trying to tie them to some past image may be the better approach.


I'm not talking about someone that says 'I use to think A bit now I think B'. Because that's not bull****ting.
08-18-2016 , 07:40 PM
Trump using a teleprompter for his rallies, first time today (not policy speeches)
08-18-2016 , 07:51 PM
Trump responds "thank you" to the crowd chanting "lock her up" lol
08-18-2016 , 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjshabado
I'm not talking about someone that says 'I use to think A bit now I think B'. Because that's not bull****ting.
Nor am I. I'm talking about

"I always believed B"

You're mistaken if you think that's always bul****ting even when when it's incorrect (let alone when you merely think it is incorrect)

Again I suggest you seriosuly consider the merits of allowing it and even encouraging it when it's in progressive direction. It is often some part real change, your initial mistake or some combnination of the two. It doesn't matter that much even if it is pure bull****tign - as often pointed out people become what they pretend to be.
08-18-2016 , 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
This is the best political satire I have seen in a long time.
08-18-2016 , 08:08 PM
Chez, no one currs.
08-18-2016 , 08:11 PM
Trump on prompter could come back and give us a scare. This is scary.
08-18-2016 , 08:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjshabado
Chez, no one currs.
If you wanted to prove this, you just wouldn't respond like the rest of us
08-18-2016 , 08:12 PM
I don't agree with Shuffle on everything - namely I'm voting for Hillary and not Stein. I agree with you that the scale of atrocities have been much worse under Republicans than Democrats (post Vietnam), but picking some of this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
You keep saying "monetary policy," but it's unclear what you mean by that. If you mean actual monetary policy--interest rates and money supply--then you don't know what you're talking about. You think near zero level interest rates help the wealthy?
It helps some and it hurts some rich people. Wall Street in particular loves it because some people in the markets love to borrow. For example, Lehman Brothers had $613B in debt. Before the crash, $3 trillion was lent to financial institutions by the Federal Reserve. JP Morgan at one time held $20B in federal debt paying 2.1 percent, while borrowing $29B from the Fed at 0.3%.

As you can see, the rates go up and down, but remaining this low for this long is pretty exceptional.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
This is stupid. US wars cost way more money than they bring in. And how do they make money from raping and killing? You see, this is just stupid rhetoric. It's what you think a liberal might say, but it's incoherent.
The Iraq war is probably a failure economically for the country as a whole, but policy in the ME is about oil which is a $1 trillion/year industry and is a long term thing. Military action in the past, supporting friendly dictators in countries that supply resources has generally been profitable. And for some interested parties like Haliburton, the war in Iraq has been extraordinarily profitable ($40B in contracts).

No one is paid to rape and killing civilians might not be profitable, but that's what happens during war - always. Accidentally bombing a hospital or the like is absolutely a foregone conclusion and anyone deciding to launch military missions is responsible for it and hopefully has very good reasons to believe that the benefits will be worth the costs - for all the people, not just stockholders of defense contractors.

I know you'll agree with the parts that blame the Republicans, but the Democrats are certainly not innocent of a violent foreign policy that supports US economic interests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ball
Taxes, borrowing and Social Security as "stealing" is straight-up anarcho-capitalist rhetoric.
In the short term increasing debt is fine, and there should have been more stimulus even. But, long term structural debt is "stealing" from future generations. I don't know how much of this Obama could have pulled off, but taxes needed to be raised (not just tax cuts expire) and massive cuts were needed in defense, prisons, policing, the NSA, etc.
08-18-2016 , 08:14 PM
Trump: "I'm going to ask my senior officials to sign an agreement not to accept speaking fees from corporations with a registered lobbyist for five years after leaving office, or from any entity tied to a foreign government."

Everyone cheers.

Manafort, anyone? Anyone????? I guess that story hasn't been covered on Breitbart.
08-18-2016 , 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjshabado
Chez, no one currs.
Sure they do. Progressive politics is important to many.

The cognitive realities behind memories and belief matter a great deal to progressive politics. Many will change ther views over their lifteimes and many of them will not be aware of much of that change. One day you may not remember you didn't think it mattered.
08-18-2016 , 08:21 PM
I don't see how teleprompter Trump is anything but bad for him. His fans love him not being on teleprompter and saying horrible ****. Teleprompter Trump is a betrayal. At the very least he will fail to keep them stoked up enough to vote if he stops being a fascist POS. And the people who might be sucked in by teleprompter Trump? If they haven't yet seen him be a horrific idiot, it's not that hard to show it. He's on tape.
08-18-2016 , 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuserounder
Trump on prompter could come back and give us a scare. This is scary.
Who is this man. Can he go 2 days like this
08-18-2016 , 08:22 PM
New speech with teleprompter was very different.. did Trump pivot?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAjWtnGihYA&t=42m26s
08-18-2016 , 08:27 PM
Yeah he'll declare that Black Lives Matter any day now
08-18-2016 , 08:30 PM
you're not supposed to be able to tell that he's reading
08-18-2016 , 08:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice
New speech with teleprompter was very different.. did Trump pivot?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAjWtnGihYA&t=42m26s
Quote:
Donald Trump on Tuesday said he is not interested in moderating his tone for the general presidential election.

“Well, possibly I do, but you know, I am who I am,” he told News 8 reporter Brittany Schmidt when asked whether he needs to change tactics before November as recent polls show him behind Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton.

“Everyone talks about, ‘Oh, you’ve got to pivot,’” Trump added in La Crosse, Wis. "I don’t want to pivot. I don’t want to change.

"You have to be you. If you start pivoting, you’re not being honest with people. No, I am who I am.”
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...-want-to-pivot
08-18-2016 , 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice
New speech with teleprompter was very different.. did Trump pivot?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAjWtnGihYA&t=42m26s
pivoting from a renegade who speaks his mind to a mouthpiece for a team of calculated politicos? sounds like exactly what i would tell him to do and i want him to lose votes as fast as possible
08-18-2016 , 08:33 PM
Aside from Alex, does anyone think he actually gains more votes than he loses by pivoting at this point?
08-18-2016 , 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by microbet
I don't see how teleprompter Trump is anything but bad for him. His fans love him not being on teleprompter and saying horrible ****. Teleprompter Trump is a betrayal. At the very least he will fail to keep them stoked up enough to vote if he stops being a fascist POS. And the people who might be sucked in by teleprompter Trump? If they haven't yet seen him be a horrific idiot, it's not that hard to show it. He's on tape.
Because the people who love crazy/racist/sexist/xenophobic Trump are voting for him anyway. He's still talking about the wall, no Muslim immigrants from certain countries, etc. He's the closest thing they're going to get to a candidate that they love in their lifetimes.

If he gives speeches like the last three days over the next 2.5 months, he'll bring back some of the Republicans who left him for being all of the above things. He can seem just in control and sane enough for them to justify it all as setting up the pivot.

Is that enough to win on its own? No... But, it might get him NC, GA, AZ back in the solid red, and it puts him within striking distance if there's another scandal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lozen
Who is this man. Can he go 2 days like this
He's basically done three now...

      
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