There's the longer term effect whereby political parties reposition themselves in the direction of the voters. Moving the center over time is a vital part of how democracies progress.

Not voting while being willing to given suitable candidates/policies can be fine but not voting at all because it doesn't make any difference is a mistake. Only a small one but democracy is all about the aggregate of a lot of small bits.

Of course there's more to it. Companies leaving, outsourcing, That whole %5 unemployment rate has a lot of part time jobs in there. Economy moving towards more of service and technology.

I guess what i am trying to say is for the last 25 years, for whatever reason, wages have been stagnate. That is why Trump has a chance. People know exactly what he is and they know exactly what he is not.

It does seem hypocritical when people stereotype someone voting for Trump as a dumb, ignorant, xenophobe racist. Dids can get butthurt all he wants to, he's still a hypocrite.

Of course the sky isn't falling, but 25 years of practically stagflation and 19 trillion in debt. Time to give someone on the outside a shot, roll the dice.

PS. The meaning of the word 'liberal' has changed drastically. Use to a 'liberal' questioned everything, esp. the government no matter who was in office. Must be nice to be Democrat these days to be able to serve your term(s) and never make a mistake.

Yes. Very good point. Trump will probably be hell on them, interesting. I will read on both sides of the argument.

SuB,

I
-dont post on facebook
-lol along with everyone in that OOT thread
-have been a champion of lolvoting when it is correct
-experience 0 peer pressure to "do my civic duty"

the opposite of the caricature against which you think you're arguing. don't bring that weak ass European sauce to this barbecue. not this year. I predict you'll see during the postmortem a shockingly small section of that apathetic non-voting population will have had the ability to swing the result. after a few times it stops feeling that great anyway and polls stay open for 12 hours.

also convincing the "non-voter" is going to be an exciting field of battle for both campaigns, TRUMP with "get off the couch take your country back" vs Hill's "get off your couch, are you going to let this happen?".

This is a very good point.

I suppose those who are complaining about politics are being a bit myopic then. After all if the system does work, then we should be thinking in the very long term and not sweat the short term results.

I guess the questions then become, "When does our vote pay off?" and "Will I be alive to see it happen?"

Not enough lolz for the U3 truthers. Unemployment rates aren't calculated any differently under black presidents.

Liberalism is a broad church but I wouldn't take how it's used here as particularly representative. It's in there somewhere I suppose.

Well, as Dids pointed out, elections are about more than just the president. State and local politicians will be more likely to have an influence on your life anyway, so may as well go ahead and check the box against the antichrist while you're there electing the sheriff.

You should also keep in mind how much voting trends influence who decides to run, the process of raising funds, and political platforms themselves. That's what all those polls of likely voters are about. For example, it's well know that really old people tend to turn out in much higher numbers than the really young, so is it any big surprise that there will always be politicians who cater to the ideals of that voting block? By removing yourself from the electorate, you and every other likeminded schlub are telling politicians that your needs are of no concern.

It's not just an abundance of labor, it's that productivity has gone up a ton, meaning you can have fewer people do the same amount of work as before.


Companies get more **** done with fewer people and get to pocket the money they save on labor.

I'm not even sure what you mean, Shirley. My issue has not been the unemployment rate. Don't give a **** about it.

You are blabbing about a bunch of temporary work in the 5 percent unemployment as if this particular 5 percent unemployment is deceptive. It's not. It is exactly the same as 5 per unemployment in the past.

Fixed your sentence.


Computers are not like political candidates--DUCY?

True, but I do not live in America at the moment. I am an overseas citizen.

Sure but all of the voting done so far has resulted in dishonest people who aren't looking out for our best interests. The problem with continuing to vote for those people is that you not only encourage people like them to have a go at politics, you also discourage honest people who really do what to make a difference from getting involved. The people we elect basically crafted the playbook on how to get elected and it penalizes sincerity and honesty while encouraging deceit, exploiting the legal system, and spreading misinformation about anybody who stands in your way.

Yet, people still vote for these candidates. Everybody says that they want an honest politician and then proceeds to vote for a dishonest one. The lesser of two evils is still evil. While in the short run, it will be slightly beneficial to stick with the lesser of two evils vote, in the long run it will perpetuate a system where you'll get screwed slower than you would with other candidates. Long-term change to our system will come from abstention. If we reject what's there, then they'll be forced to put up a candidate with a new profile.

Like chezlaw pointed out, democracy is a long-term process of moving the country in slow, deliberate steps. Perhaps abstaining from voting for these unsuitable people will lead to suitable candidates in the distant future.

I'm sure that you and the 45 percent of the country that don't bother to vote in presidential elections will change the world eventually.

I'm kind of confused by the reaction to Bob's claim. Voting is pretty obviously a waste of time for an individual based on the value of the vote itself. Even in state and local elections.

The key phrase is "for an individual." Just look at past results of elections you've voted in and subtract your vote.

All the other arguments are social arguments. And they're fine arguments, but they don't apply to an individual. From a rational choice perspective, an individual shouldn't vote. You have a better chance of dying going to the poll than you do of making a difference in an election.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_voting

You are on the right track. Keep thinking about this.

And you 55 percent have done a tremendous job driving the country in the wrong direction.

If you're going to make a taco bowl, at least do it right (selection pictured has chili verde as the base). TRUMP thinks TRUMP TOWER makes good taco bowls because he's too clueless to even know what good Mexican food is.

Oh yeah this dstock is totally being upfront about his SUPER MODERATE both sidesism, his principle of "everything has gone to **** and we should try something new" is sincere and based on empirical reality.

It's like how when you have a toothache and you go to the dentist and he doesn't fix it, you go to a car mechanic next and see if a few good whacks with a tire iron fix it. Totally a legitimately held belief and NOT just a bull**** facade over his real issue: seething white male resentment.

I think part of it was that I was a bit too smug with my posts early on. Perhaps if I just linked to that Wikipedia article, it would have been a less aggressive discussion.

The taco bowl is bot one of the most disgusting and delicious dishes I have ever eaten. Each bite is filled with self-hatred and deliciousness.

Source

It's ****ing incredible and a real testament to the simplicity and racism of the American electorate that we are now seeing LEGITIMATE LEFT WING ATTACKS ON LATE STAGE CAPITALISM ARE YOU KIDDING ME deployed as arguments in favor of voting for a ****ing billionaire right winger.

These people are, without realizing it, essentially conceding that we should've elected ****ing Mondale in '84. Wonderful.

Things have gotten a lot better for a lot of people.

Involuntary part time work is cited by the Fed as one of the reasons they believe there is still slack in the labor market. It is a variable that is not captured in U3. You shouldn't be condescending.