Trump voters, you voted for deportations and targeting of Muslims. You might say its the price you are willing to pay because you hate Hillary's cronyism but you know the odds are that Trump will make her cronyism look like child's play. You knew all this and you own that.

Hillary campaign confirmed gave away the white working class base.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/10/us...-campaign.html

Side note... if you're married to the 2nd best politician in the last 30 years and have the number of the best one in your speed-dial... LISTEN TO THEM!!

Ahh, the 'ol "What Clinton did was worse!" argument! So you avoided Clinton because she is a manipulative liar and went with Trump who is not only a manipulative liar (when did the election stopped being rigged anyway?) AND ran a racist campaign with racist policies. Way to go sport!

Absolutely but how can we even evaluate behaviour modification techniques when people are in such extreme denial about how people who are attacked respond.

Political correctness is brilliantly effective at behaviour modification but it's not synonymous with personal attacks.

There's a middle ground here. For instance, Clinton's biggest lead aside from post-tapes was post-convention. #americaisalreadygreat. Where did that go? Why was the vast majority of messaging over the last two months only about Trump? Why was the landmark possibility of the first female president constantly downplayed? Where were the promises of things she will enact that directly appeal to voters, aside from the last minute co-opting of Sanders' college plan?

We all thought Trump couldn't win because the only thing in his pocket was fear, but in the end Hillary became the scare-mongering candidate. And just like the fear-based Remain campaign in Britain and the fear-based campaign in the Colombia peace deal, it backfired.

There are 0 peer reviewed studies saying they are a negative on our society.

We don't have a population problem in the U.S. I can see for miles and miles and miles right now. The dog has days of land.

Next?

Oh and I'm pretty sure I was replying to a post you ****ing brought up something as immigration and not population growth, so sorry I guess.

Here's how explaining racism to an average Trump voter goes:

Me: How would you feel if someone judged you by your race?
Them: I know already. There's more racism against white people now.
Me: Well, actually, no, you see--
Them: ALL lives matter. Not just black lives.
Me: Well, you've kind of misinterpreted the phrase. The term "black lives matter" derives from--
Them: They vote for Democrats to get free things, like Obamaphones.
Me: Uh..can we back up just a bit, this conversation is kind of going--
Them: And they abort their own babies and the men go to jail and rape white women 2 million times a year when a white man has never raped a black woman. Ever.
Me: Okay, that's wrong.
Them: That's FBI stats, libtard.
Me: Okay. [deep breaths] Imagine if you were a little black kid growing up and someone called you--
Them: Like Trayvon Martin? He was a thug on sizzlelean and the lamestream media said Zimmerman was white, but he ain't white--at--all. So, they should stop aborting their children and raping white women thousands of times a day and maybe then--
Me: GO **** YOURSELF!

Hillary rallies in Trumpland would either be empty or full of people calling her a ****, and Bill couldn't really do it for her because his health has declined and half of society has evolved to discard people like him as a sleazeball perv.

Another idea I saw mentioned: Even though Obama's candidacy was extraordinary due to his race, he himself didn't talk about race much, at all. Way more talk about race in this election from both candidates. Which plays into #3 above.

Holy ****. It's like you have been at the bar with me.

I could be wrong but I am fairly certain you missed the point of my post.

Yeah that was Brian Beutler's construction, Obama was a black man seen as safe on race for white folks, Hillary was a woman who made the celebration of diversity her campaign slogan.

Variations of this convo have been occurring all over my FB feed since about 4am Wednesday morning

I understand that about Bill's health, I'll edit to say 'LISTEN TO THEM!'

Excellent excellent post.

It's like how people said "Hey, just politely explain global warming science to people who don't believe it." No. Just, no. It doesn't work. The dark age of conspiracy ideation is nigh. The left is next.

I was speaking in the parlance of the area, hence the quotes. People had told me we probably don't want to send our kids there.

But yeah, you can say mean things to me. I need to snap back into deflective sarcasm anyway. Plus, you don't even know where my soft spots are. I'm still a 2 handicap. I've still got the best set of hedges on my block.

Edit: And I like the "this guy" you tossed in there. Remove yourself from "this guy" that's been posting on this board damn near as long as you have and spoken directly with and even agreed with on multiple occasions. Cheers. I'm an idiot.

Maybe just take a course in human behavioral studies? Even a rudimentary course in basic sales skills would help.

See, the problem isn't that people like you and Fly are wrong. It's with the way in which you guys teach. And I use "teach" in a literal sense because in many instances people need to learn why something is racist or how to recognize their own privilege.

Very few people WANT to be a racist, a bigot, a misogynist, or a xenophobe. Yet, most of us start off that way in one form or another. The vast majority aren't fortunate enough to be raised in an idealistic blissful culture that exudes nothing but equality from day 1 of our lives. Maybe we had an ignorant parent, teacher, uncle, or a family member who we looked up to that exhibited intolerance, sexism, etc., at times.

So it really depends on what your end goal is. If it's simply to identify racist sentiment and make yourself feel good by calling people names, then by all means, as you were. But if you really want to achieve progress and make headway into the problems of inequality, then you're going to have to change your ways. I've been a forum member for over 11 years and have +10k posts. Many of those posts were made in heated debates with multitudes of other posters in some very fiery exchanges. Yet, there is only ONE poster I have ever put on an ignore list and that was Fly! Why? Because I became convinced his methods do far more harm to the subject of racial relations than good.

Again, most of us at some point in our lives were bigoted to some degree on some issues. I'm embarrassed to look back and realize my own past bigotry on certain issues and admit I didn't even know I was being bigoted. I was fortunate enough to have people in my life (and several gracious posters from these forums) who took the time to explain the error of my ways and why what I thought was bigoted even though I didn't see why at the time.

Here's an honest bit of advice that I learned and have been using with much positive effect: When someone says something that I find racist in my presence, I do NOT call them a racist POS! Instead, I politely explain that what they just said is problematic. They almost always ask, "what do you mean by that?" and I am afforded the opportunity to explain it to them. I doubt I've changed anyone's mind the first go around, but it's amazing how often it opens up a dialogue for future conversation. Next time I see them they'll ask, "well, how do you account for this?" and I can continue trying to educate them.

So again. Very few people want to be a racist, and fewer still, consider themselves to actually be one. You can continue to sulk in your intellectual superiority and scoff at how you need to dumb yourself down in the future until the ignorant can catch up, but you'd do best by recognizing that yes... People like you and Fly were very much a part of what caused people to overlook what should have been clear disqualifying bigotry from this president-elect. And your name calling played almost no role when it came to actually solving for inequality. You can either continue denying this demonstrable fact, or learn from it.

Pretty much.

Pretty sure "this guy" was the guy he went on to quote, not you. Punctuation has consequences.

May be. I apologize if I misread that. This is that kind of thread.

Edit: Yeah you're right, I missed the colon, sorry Dvaut. Completely misread it. Yeah, say what you gotta say. This is the thread for it after all.

Be mean to me too. I kind of deserve it after that misread.

My mother's hatred of Hillary forced her to rationalize a vote for Donald Trump at all costs. The mental gymnastics she did in explaining away his bigotry was painful to hear. Just outright pathetic.

She would have voted for the Green River Killer against Clinton. That's how much she hates Hillary and her sentiment is shared by the nearly 60 million people who voted for Trump. There's no hardened policy. Trump ran a campaign based on making people feel good by offering empty platitudes and enough people took the bait to give him the Presidency.

I think what we learned is how disconnected the Democratic Party is from most of America. This election was supposed to be a cakewalk but the Dems ****ed it up by choosing the most unlikable candidate for the job. People shouted for change for years and the Dems offered up the status quo. When having to choose between a system that screws people over for the 1% or somebody who offers an alternative, people will get desperate and be willing to roll the dice with the unknown and unpredictable figuring that there's no way it can be worse than what they have now.

They'll be in for a wake-up call of course. Trump supporters think they have it bad because they've never truly suffered like previous generations have. People take the fact that America is the most powerful nation in the world for granted when the truth is that there are people alive who can remember when it was nothing more than an afterthought in Europe. All empires have their ups and downs and America will certainly be being going down. I hope that tough times will humble people and make them more appreciative of what they have in the long run. Perhaps it is naive to believe that it will happen, but it's all I can really do.

You said neither candidate was "morally superior"--but obviously being a manipulative liar AND a racist is worse than being just a manipulative liar.

I know you're thinking that you have the moral high ground because you would never vote for a "manipulative liar," but really all you are telling me is that you're a ripe target for negative advertizing and you don't care much. Obviously if Candidate A was a liar and Candidate B said she would kill your entire family if elected, you would vote for A. Heck, you'd campaign for A, right? You just don't think what's happening now is important enough.

Fine. But not thinking racism is important is no reason to be smug.

Let's say hypothetically it had been a conventional Republican as the nominee, let's just say Kasich.

Does Hillary lose worse or does she actually win?

I honestly have no idea.

The conventional wisdom might be she loses worse, because if she lost to Trump despite all his horrible baggage, surely she loses worse to someone with a minuscule fraction of that.

However Kasich most likely would have run a completely boring and vanilla campaign. I could see how his message would not fire up the blue collar rust belt workers and he loses the midwest swing states Trump won.

Trump appears to have won mostly on the basis of Dems just not being excited about Hillary, and Trump's fire and brimstone against Hillary was likely a factor. Kasich's attacks on Hillary would have looked like a pillow fight in comparison.

Trump might have been the only Republican with the recklessness to actually win at the end of the day.

Are you from Seattle Bob? Green River Killer seems like a fairly local killer.