I was obviously refering to this:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...ussion-733894/

I'm a bit guilty of playing over rolled and not shot taking, what do you feel is sufficient amount of bis to move up?

we all know that CR/Stox are a bunch of scammers/angle-shooters so lets dont derail this thread. just ignore what Grue said and continue with the discussion.


ive started playing NL100 before a month and reviewing my game i must admit that the biggest leaks i see are:

- table selection
- every reg always assumes that other regs are exploiting/bluffing him every single time.

if u play for a living i am confident 100bi BRM is a must

it really depends a lot on your living costs/playing as a pro situation and how hitting downswings affect your attitude/play.

yeah i keep like 125 online and play for a living, bankroll nit!

This is basically just saying be aware of what types of players are at your table and your position on them and adjust your PF range accordingly. For example if you have a few 3b monkeys to your left your going to want to tighten up in general and adjust your normal stealing range from the BTN and CO because they will be getting 3b a ton. That's all pretty basic stuff, but you also want to think about how you can adjust your ranges from other positions. If there's a big fish in the blinds you can start opening some weaker hands, even UTG, just to play pots with them. I think nutedawg talks about this a little in one of his recent videos, saying how he would open J7s (or something similar, don't remember exactly) UTG if there were a fish in the blinds, which is usually just an auto fold for most. A lot of regs are pretty good about adjusting under the conditions I mentioned first, but I think that a lot of people don't adjust their UTG, UTG+1 ranges often enough, I know I'm definitely guilty of this.

I don't play for a living so it's quite different for me... I don't feel qualified to advise anyone on this but here's how it works for me:

I feel like shot-taking REALLY improves your sharpness and focus on the game, sure losing money sucks but it's a way to force yourself to slow down and think hard because the money DOES matter. It makes you focus on game selection, note-taking, the little things, instead of just wait-listing every 1/2 table and automatically sitting in when your turn comes.

Shot-taking can also be really good for your confidence because you realize the people playing a level or two above you aren't the supreme millionaire poker gods, some are good, most are a bit better than you are used to from SSNL, but the gap isn't that wide. It's just good to dip your toes in and realize you can swim a little bit. That confidence can be really helpful/motivating.

Over-rolled >>> under-rolled for sure but I feel like the time horizon for online poker may be pretty limited and if it all ends due to legislation/botting/fish pool dried up/whatever I'm not going to be proud that I just stuck at 1/2 for my whole poker career and never even tried midstakes.

People also think about "moving up" way too rigidly, I will play in any small-stakes or mid-stakes game if it's good (I would draw the line at 5/10, that's too big for me right now), and I think it's just unnecessary to say "oh i'm a 200NL reg I never play any other stake." Play 100NL and try weird stuff out, play 400NL and cut down the tables, playing 3/6 if you see a good fishy spot (not that there are many of those at 3/6, I've looked). I was definitely guilty in the past of moving up and then never moving up/down once I got there, now I mix a lot of games together and I've certainly had sessions where I've been playing 100NL-400NL at the same time.

Anyway I don't think BR stuff is the biggest leak by far, it's the other things about excessive nittiness and lack of balance that lead to the endless breakeven stretches of some regs... but for me the bankroll stuff has been a big issue in my poker development.

Bilbo and the others are probably right about the biggest leaks being giving people too much credit, assumes regs are bluffing in good bluff spots when they rarely are, etc.

also taking shots when you are feeling confident is good.

I play for a living. Here's my method:

1. Give yourself a monthly paycheck that's withdrawn at the end of each month. This paycheck does not differ depending on how you're running. That means withdrawing the same when you're on a nasty downswong as when you've just run 50bb/100 over your past 10k hands. This is very important. Obviously you can always give yourself a raise, but withdrawing a ton when running hot and just trying to never withdraw on a downswong is just going to set you up for some problems imo.

2. Set a 'base' level of buyins for a stake. For myself, I set this number at 40. With 40 buyins I have pretty much a 0% chance of ever going bust as I'm happy to move down as needed.

3. At the point during the month that your roll exceeds your 'base' + paycheck, you're earning shot taking money. Generally, I like to have a 5 buyin shot. So when you've earned that much, go for it.

To put it into real numbers.

Let's say you play $100NL, withdraw $3000 per month and want to move up to $200.

base level = $100*40 = $4000
paycheck = $3000
shot cost = $1000

So you would take a shot at $200 at $8000, moving back down to $100 at $7000.

Let's say you play at $200NL, still only withdraw $3000 per month and want to move up to $400.

base level = $200 * 40 = $8000
paycheck = $3000
shot cost = $2000

So you would take a shot at $13000, moving back down at $11000.

This works pretty well for me. I never feel under rolled in the least and it doesn't take too terribly long to grind up a shot.

that sounds about right. I do have a "base" level I withdraw b/c of a possible need to support close family members some time in the near future, so I am using SSNL poker to draw a little emergency fund if that happens. Your calculations look pretty solid to me. I guess this could probably all be moved into another thread about BR management/playing for steady income as I don't think it has a ton to do with "the biggest leaks at 100NL & 200NL."

Obv leak #1 is not having rakeback btw.

How can anyone playing for a living be as ******ed as to keep 125 BI online?

jesus come on, if you play 200NL that's 25k, not exactly life-changing money, plus for some of us non-euros depositing is not easy at all so it's much safer just to have a lot on there at one time.

I mean I agree that keeping hundreds of thousands online is too risky but even a big SSNL bankroll is not that big a deal.

3b OOP too often

explain how it's "******ed"

Not totally sure what your point is lol

You should keep some % of your bankroll where it will make you a return. Doesn't have to be locked up, but can be easily accessible / safe etc. Keeping 125BIs in an online poker account where it's making you zero interest and where it is less secure than in a bank (cough Micro) is ill-advised.

3betting from the blinds, turn play and autopiloting are the first things that come to mind.

- corsakh

Why would you keep all that money in somewhere so insecure? Most pro's i know keep 20BI's max. It takes about 6 seconds to deposit.

yeah but what about moving up?

and really, u think i care about 2% yearly returns? really????????? to go through all that hassle, cash out over 20k, notify the IRS, put it in the bank, talk to a financial advisor and at the end of the day make 400 a year on that money. or gamble in the stock market?

no thanks, i make 7% on my money per hour when i sit down and play. Moving up is a lot more important then cashing out and putting it in relatively crappy investment vehicles

Oh yeh forgot you lot had to pay taxes on winnings. My bad, not ******ed for you's.

lol yeah if u suck at poker and are grinding rakeback money.

For certain people it is easier to keep fairly decent amounts of money online.

they don't know how to tell stories right.

I'd say it would be regs taking lines/choosing betsizes that are 95% value or 95% bluffs

Or don't realise that against some fish you don't need to tell a story and playing an easily exploitable strategy against them is is far more profitable than balanced more "logical" play.