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turn play with bottom set on a horrible board turn play with bottom set on a horrible board

09-09-2007 , 07:50 PM
UTG is some unknown and so far looks to be pretty bad. Button is 'mike_the_cat'. My initial impression of him was that he liked to reraise light and win pots through sheer aggression. However, we have now played about 1200 hands and he is solid. 18/15/ and seems to read hands pretty well.

His preflop raise is any pair, AK or some suited connectors. His call on the flop narrows his range somewhat. I think he raises a higher set because of the drawy nature of the board. So we're left with AA, KK, JT or some sort of diamond draw. On the turn I'm really not at all worried about UTG but the minraise with me still to act after i led out on the flop has me concerned. Is this the time for me to fold or JAM?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero ($222.20)
UTG ($75.80)
MP ($136.55)
CO ($224.25)
Button ($96.50)
SB ($113.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, 2.
UTG calls $1, 2 folds, Button raises to $5, 1 fold, Hero calls $4, UTG calls $4.

Flop: ($15.50) Q, 2, 9 (3 players)
Hero bets $9, UTG calls $9, Button calls $9.

Turn: ($42.50) K (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $20, Button raises to $40, Hero ???
09-09-2007 , 07:56 PM
Your flop bet is too small. Bet/call the turn.
09-09-2007 , 07:56 PM
*grunch*

shove and get value from btn's entire raising range (two pair, tp) and UTG's draw. Btn doesn't only have JT here.
09-09-2007 , 08:07 PM
JT is a concern but against this guy I'm more worried about KK, especially after the call on the flop.

My problems always seem to be on the turn and I'm fed up spewing unnecessarily and missing value in spots like this.
09-09-2007 , 08:37 PM
out of curiosity: why did you check the turn after leading the flop?
09-09-2007 , 08:42 PM
based on your read of button i think i like c/r flop better (he's c-betting this like every time)

as played:
i like a $14 donk>>$6 donk>>>>>$9 donk
and lead turn for $25-30
09-09-2007 , 08:48 PM
What is horrible about this board? I go nuts here. Lots more combos of KQ than KK. Arr in please. Folding would be a crime.
09-09-2007 , 08:59 PM
i just really hate checking the turn because any call or raise by us makes our hand look stronger than it is.
09-10-2007 , 01:35 AM
Quote:
What is horrible about this board? I go nuts here. Lots more combos of KQ than KK. Arr in please. Folding would be a crime.
i dont think hero's worried about KK here.
09-10-2007 , 04:38 AM
Quote:
Quote:
What is horrible about this board? I go nuts here. Lots more combos of KQ than KK. Arr in please. Folding would be a crime.
i dont think hero's worried about KK here.
Well, then what is the problem? It's the only hand I would be worried about. That and a fluke JT off course. Anyways. Get it in.
09-10-2007 , 04:50 AM
Just from experience and how the hand has played out I think you're behind at least 80% of the time. But if you push I think other villain comes along with his draw. That plus the times you fill up on the river/are ahead on the turn probably makes this a shove.

As a previous poster said though definitely bet more on the flop and just bet/call turn.
09-10-2007 , 04:52 AM
The only thing that would make me think I'm behind here is that the hand got posted, so hero obviously lost. This is still a fistpump push.
09-10-2007 , 05:46 AM
Quote:
The only thing that would make me think I'm behind here is that the hand got posted, so hero obviously lost.
Hero didn't 'obviously' lose. In my experience of playing with the button, he is not a fish. He plays well. What hand do you put him on that is consistent with the action? In your experience of that sort of board what hand do you put him on that is able to min raise that bet on the turn with two players still in?

For those that say I should have bet more on the flop, I agree.
09-10-2007 , 06:34 AM
KQ makes perfect sense. As do KK/JT. We have outs vs JT. UTG being fishy and having a wide range, coupled with you checking turn and looking like you have given up puts other stuff in his range as well. KJ/KT is possible, coupled with the fact that even solid players at 100NL doing things that defies reason from time to time means you can't fold.

Also, bet/call turn. Why did you check the turn?
09-10-2007 , 07:02 AM
I was looking to crai on the turn, expecting fishy boy to check as well. The action on the turn had me scratching my head though. In my experience a min raise on the turn in this spot from a solid player is always a monster.
09-10-2007 , 07:42 AM
Quote:
His preflop raise is any pair, any broadway or some suited/unsuited connectors.
Seems more reasonable. Is there a reason that you feel his isolation range would be so tight on the button?

Why do you think he raises up QQ/99 on that flop, but not AA/KK?

On the turn, maybe he's a good enough hand reader to know that he can offer these odds with JT or a bigger set because you never lead diamonds, and the K just helped UTG so he's way ahead of 2 pair or a random floated King? We'd also have to assume he's not worried about extracting value with all those scare cards to come on the river.

Or is it that he knows his KQ is in good shape against UTG and you've given up on the hand?

Point being, I think his range is a lot wider than you think. If he turned JT face up, you couldn't fold to this bet, unless you know UTG is 3betting, and I don't like putting in ~60% eff. stacks and folding, plus lots of scary rivers = shove?
09-10-2007 , 08:55 AM
villain has KK almost never. what 'solid' player is calling a flop bet with an OP on that board against 2 players? His range is pretty much left to QQ/99/ KQ/ maybe TJ. 99 and QQ are less likely because msot players want to jam that pot on a board like that with a set and hope that you stack yourself with AQ.They are possible, but i discount how often you see them.

so that leaves KQ and TJ. You are crushing KQ and and have 10 outs againts JT.
You also through in the possibility that villain shows up with K9/complete air occasionally and that makes this play an easy shove.
09-10-2007 , 12:18 PM
How do you like to play KK here on the flop? Raise/calling? Thats good in aggro games, but I'm guessing raise/calling OP's donk here means villain is flipping or crushed with his KK.

      
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