I played on FTP on my mac today, which would be w/o a HUD. That combined w/ watching sh58's recent video (which was great btw and you should all check it out imo) and he touched the subject, but i want to hear it from other points of wiev aswell. It got me thinking a bit.

Assume 100BBs effective @ NL $100. And you're playing 27/20 or so.
You've been on the table for 1 hour and been pretty active, 3betting alot, but not crazy alot.

#1
You have KQo in BB, folded to BTN who opens for $3.5, you make it $13, and he calls. Flop comes 6-9-Qr, You bet $22 He raises to $62.

About where do you stack off here? I mean against a 8/4 you fold, and a 50/20 you push. But where do you draw the line between push and fold in general?

#2
KQo on BTN. Folds to CO who makes it $3.5, you again make it $13. Same flop, he bets in to you for $22. Same question here. Where do you stack off, where do you give up?

Give me some reasoning to go w/ your answers plz, thanks!

so you're saying if you have nothing but stats what is your cutoff point of vpip/pfr numbers for getting it in vs. not? sorry, but i think this is a pretty meaningless question. you said it yourself: 8/4 you fold, 50/20 you push. anything in between and other factors become more important, like simple flow of the game, timing, previous hands. I mean you've been at the table for an hour so you should have reads.

I pretty much stack off at the point where I have an active image and have been 3betting light and I flopped top pair in a 3bet pot.

In the second hand though I feel like I just call the flop in position, since if he's bluffing he doesn't have a lot of outs.

if i'm 3betting KQ i'm very very rarely folding when i hit top pair.

This was my thought as well. If you cant be comfortable stacking off with tpgk here then I think its safe to say you shouldnt be 3 betting KQ. Of course this is in general but I cant think of many spots where I would be folding. He has to be a super nit and then I wouldnt be 3 betting this pf.

Im talking in general, i have a pretty good idea about how i like to play these kind of hands. It was more a question of how other players do it.. I allways want other peoples angles and ways of dealing w/ different stuff. Get some fresh input.

I wouldnt cbet the flop if I wasnt comfortable stacking off

problem solved

shove for information in both hands imo.

regardless of villain ldo

Thats great

Hmm… I really don’t find that a good blanket statement here. 8/4/.5s aren’t raising without something huge and 50/20s just overvalue their moronic hands way too much to just give up with TPGK.

In regards to donk bets, I think it all depends on villain’s betting tendencies. What do they mean. I really don’t think you can make an accurate assumption on just stats alone.

spr < 4
you hold tpsk

Stacking off against all but the tightest players isn't awful. Folding here is exploitable. If you do fold make sure you show so that you get more action next time.

he could be raising the flop on TT QJ J9 any pair or as a total bluff.

u say u have no hud so you cant look at his raise cbet stat.

If you have the pt stats as you suggest then His aggression/ is more important here than his vpip/pfr. This is also easier to judge if you don't have the stats.
Against a very passive player you fold here, against an aggressive player you stack off.

????????????????????? 8/4's are calling 3 bets with J9 and raising their TT to pot committed on a Q high board?

calling with J9 no
but raising up TT yes.

ultra-tight 8/4 players need to be this aggressive to break even or beat the game. Against stat aware players they have an inordinate amount of fold equity.

of course if his af is only 0.5 then you can fold, but realise that 8/4/0.5 is a losing player and not as common as 8/4/3

FYP

I've never seen a player with either of those stats lines in a 6 max cash game over any kind of reasonable sample, so I think an 8/4/0.5 is exactly as common as the "image aware" 8/4/3.

completely agree with spivey here. (not surprising :P)

youre missing the point.

you have to have a reason to bet before you do.

like if you 3bet AJo here, it'd be an easy bet b/c you figure that villain's range missed enough of the board/fold out underpairs/whatever for a cbet to be profitable, etc... but since you 3bet KQ and hit tpgk, you can still bet but it shouldn't be for the same reason you bet air.

this mostly has to do with planning ahead. you cbet w/ air here cause you've determined that its a profitable bet AND you have an easy decision if raised.

if you bet w/ tpgk, it SHOULD be because your image is bad enough/villain is studid enough that you expect him to call with worse AND you have a good idea what to do if faced with a raise.

just because you 3bet preflop doesnt mean you have to bet every flop whether it hit you or not... of course you need balance though so dont start checking every time you hit and betting when you miss cause people will pick up on that too. just think things through before you act.

Overrated imo. Blind aggression is golden.

literally LOL'd

u been on fire lately

Not on my mac, so it got me thinking... if you guys have some standards here. I stack off here often if im the 3bettor, and seems like most others do too. So thats something atleast!

ok... again, your blanket statement. You think a 8/4 villain is gonna stack off with worse here? Apparently I'm not getting your argument or point. I claimed that a blanket statement to all of his questions did not apply when determining to stack off or not. Are we on the same page?

I'm totally confused.

but I think we're on the same page

hehe... ok. My response to this was: Hmm… I really don’t find that a good blanket statement here.

And then your replying statement was on a tangent. I'm rost ror!

I wouldn't 3-bet an 8/4 with KQo in the first place.